Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:49 pm  

mikej wrote:

I've not seen the 2013 accounts but from 25+ years in accountancy I can tell you something...............................you will NOT get the full story from ready the numbers. Basically only the board and the major shareholders will know the ins-and-out of where the money is or the money goes.

+1. I imagine we're filing abbreviated accounts too?

No-one has mentioned the debt figure, or given an indication as to how Moran's invested money has been dealt with (capital or loans?). That could be very important for the future.

I don't follow the logic that he might now think 'job done' and not opt to stick more money in.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:08 am  

NtW wrote:

+1. I imagine we're filing abbreviated accounts too?

No-one has mentioned the debt figure, or given an indication as to how Moran's invested money has been dealt with (capital or loans?). That could be very important for the future.

I don't follow the logic that he might now think 'job done' and not opt to stick more money in.

It's a pity you couldn't be bothered to actually read the accounts. It's a bit like commenting on a game that you never watched, surely.

Abbreviated accounts don't normally contain a P&L account, and those figures have already been quoted in the thread.

Loans over a year are around £2M, the vast majority of which are bank loans. Moran has £185k in his DLA, but one of his companies made a £500k short term loan available last year. I would guess that this might have been a bridging loan before receipt of the franchised £300k and other fluctuations in cash flow. So if Moran did up and leave suddenly, the club would certainly not disappear, but would obviously still need a good financial backer.

In previous years I assume Moran has simply paid up for some of our big transfers. This is the first time I have seen transfer costs recorded in the accounts and hence paid for via the club. Getting the club to be self financing is surely an important goal for Moran, and hence the comments about 'job done'.

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Thu Aug 14, 2014 12:54 pm  

The loans are on the following terms, I have no problem with the club borrowing money when they can get it at those rates;

£991,228 (2012 £1 Million) repayable monthly over 10 years at 1.75% above base rate
£498,573 (2012 £541,607) repayable monthly over 9 years at 3% above base rate
£600,000 bank overdraft

These have a personal guarantee from Simon Moran.

£775,000 owed to SJM Limited (£525,000 repayable within 1 year, £250,000 repayable in more than 1 year)

We have an asset in the stadium, which is being used every single day not just for rugby, for example;

Warrington Primary Care Trust (In 10th year of 50 year lease)
Warrington Wolves Community Learning and Sports Foundation
Warrington Primary Care Trust I.T training centre (10th year of 15 year lease)
PhysioFirst (extended 5 year lease)
Companies hosting meetings
Events

The club has invested to improve the training facilities at University of Chester, and improve the stadium. We have managed to get bigger sponsors on board, and there will be more Sky money available.

We are in a much better situation than when we were at Wilderspool, which was simply bleeding money.

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:06 pm  

Winslade's Offload wrote:

It doesn't seem that we had a great 2013 from a financial viewpoint. Our income (Turnover) fell from approx £6.77M in 2012 to £6.32M and despite a fall in costs we ended up with a gross profit that was £344K lower. I suspect that the majority of this income drop was gate money ( perhaps £200K ? ) due to the fall in attendances at the HJ.

So to counteract the drop in income it looks as though Andy Gatcliffe has been busy cost cutting. We employed 12 fewer players in 2013 (59 in total), two less coaches and trainers, and 3 fewer admin staff. Our Admin expenses consequently fell by £220K, but this saving was wiped out by the cost of transfers (see Daryl Clark thread ) which amounted to a net £215K.

Our net profit for the year ended up as £18K, compared with £344K in 2012.

Our figures don't look too bad to me. For any rugby league team to make a profit is a very good position to be in particularly after incurring transfer costs in excess of £200k (I recall Wigan made a small profit last year, about £27k I think, on the back of transfer fee receipts of over £250k). I wonder if any other teams will report a profit for the same period?

As for reduction in playing/coaching staff then I would imagine this is linked to the scrapping of the u20's. I'd imagine that the majority of the "lost" players ended-up as Swinton players.

Its worth doing a comparison with Saints' figures that have just been released:

Saints turnover down to £5.365m from £5.785m - so same sort of drop in monetary terms but greater as a percentage, although our previous year included a money-spinning Wembley trip. Their turnover is some £1m less than ours despite enjoying greater average attendances.

Saints loss has increased to £2.412m (yes that is two million four hundred thousand pounds LOSS) from £1.685m the year before. I'd have to think that a profit of £18k starts to look very good indeed after a look at these losses.

You might think this stemmed from Gatcliffe's cost cutting of the paying staff until you see that Saints have reduced their paying and coaching staff by 43 during the same period. Saints now actually have fewer playing and coaching staff than we do (84 for Warrington and 75 for Saints). It would seem from this than the reduction is linked to operating one less academy team rather than targeted cost cutting.

If you think we didn't have a great financial year in 2013 God knows how you would classify Saints' year.

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:20 pm  

Paul Youane wrote:

If you think we didn't have a great financial year in 2013 God knows how you would classify Saints' year.

they've had a 'Roy'.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Fri Aug 15, 2014 2:15 pm  

morleys_deckchair wrote:

Paul Youane wrote:

If you think we didn't have a great financial year in 2013 God knows how you would classify Saints' year.

they've had a 'Roy'.

Paul Youane wrote:

Winslade's Offload wrote:

It doesn't seem that we had a great 2013 from a financial viewpoint. Our income (Turnover) fell from approx £6.77M in 2012 to £6.32M and despite a fall in costs we ended up with a gross profit that was £344K lower. I suspect that the majority of this income drop was gate money ( perhaps £200K ? ) due to the fall in attendances at the HJ.

So to counteract the drop in income it looks as though Andy Gatcliffe has been busy cost cutting. We employed 12 fewer players in 2013 (59 in total), two less coaches and trainers, and 3 fewer admin staff. Our Admin expenses consequently fell by £220K, but this saving was wiped out by the cost of transfers (see Daryl Clark thread ) which amounted to a net £215K.

Our net profit for the year ended up as £18K, compared with £344K in 2012.

Our figures don't look too bad to me. For any rugby league team to make a profit is a very good position to be in particularly after incurring transfer costs in excess of £200k (I recall Wigan made a small profit last year, about £27k I think, on the back of transfer fee receipts of over £250k). I wonder if any other teams will report a profit for the same period?

As for reduction in playing/coaching staff then I would imagine this is linked to the scrapping of the u20's. I'd imagine that the majority of the "lost" players ended-up as Swinton players.

Its worth doing a comparison with Saints' figures that have just been released:

Saints turnover down to £5.365m from £5.785m - so same sort of drop in monetary terms but greater as a percentage, although our previous year included a money-spinning Wembley trip. Their turnover is some £1m less than ours despite enjoying greater average attendances.

Saints loss has increased to £2.412m (yes that is two million four hundred thousand pounds LOSS) from £1.685m the year before. I'd have to think that a profit of £18k starts to look very good indeed after a look at these losses.

You might think this stemmed from Gatcliffe's cost cutting of the paying staff until you see that Saints have reduced their paying and coaching staff by 43 during the same period. Saints now actually have fewer playing and coaching staff than we do (84 for Warrington and 75 for Saints). It would seem from this than the reduction is linked to operating one less academy team rather than targeted cost cutting.

If you think we didn't have a great financial year in 2013 God knows how you would classify Saints' year.

I will have a look at Saints figures then. Don't forget though that the Profit and Loss also includes depreciation and amortisation (of goodwill) which amounted to a charge of £213,000 for us. None of that is 'real money', we didn't pay it out last year, and it can distort the picture of a company that owns a very large asset such as a stadium. So I will be interested to see what level of depreciation Saints had for their depreciation since they have such a new stadium. However, even if it cost £20M I can't see that annual depreciation could be more than say £500K. That leaves a lot of dosh to be explained, and you are right, on the surface at least, it looks an awful set of figures for the year.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:04 pm  

Having looked at Saints full year accounts I would have to say that one or more Board directors have very deep pockets. Their operational loss was £2.17 M and on top of that they paid out £534K on their capital budget - I assume this was the stadium cladding.

The Balance Sheet has a line for Creditors, 'amounts falling due after more than one year' of nearly £16 M, up from £13.3 M in 2012. This looks to be the accumulated amount of money that directors have pumped into the club - It makes Simon Moran look like a pauper in comparison, and there was me thinking we had one of the wealthiest backers in SL.

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:17 pm  

Winslade's Offload wrote: Having looked at Saints full year accounts I would have to say that one or more Board directors have very deep pockets. Their operational loss was £2.17 M and on top of that they paid out £534K on their capital budget - I assume this was the stadium cladding. The Balance Sheet has a line for Creditors, 'amounts falling due after more than one year' of nearly £16 M, up from £13.3 M in 2012. This looks to be the accumulated amount of money that directors have pumped into the club - It makes Simon Moran look like a pauper in comparison, and there was me thinking we had one of the wealthiest backers in SL. The man in question is Mike Coleman (brief intro link: http://www.eurekahedge.co.uk/news/11_Ju ... modity.asp) born in St. Helens, educated in Oxford and now owns and runs a hedge fund, which led to him meeting McManus, and joining the saints board. To the inevitable: what if he pulls the plug? His only options are, given how the debt is accumulated in a shell company, would be to either convert it into shares, and take control or get Saints to pay it back in their own time. Given like McManus, he's a lifelong Saints fan, it puts us in as safe a position as feasibly possible. I won't have the argument about this years figures. I feel there's an awful lot of "setting up" (not "real money" being moved around - like the creation of a 2.3m tax asset) going on ... Ultimately, were run by 2 bankers.

Winslade's Offload wrote: Having looked at Saints full year accounts I would have to say that one or more Board directors have very deep pockets. Their operational loss was £2.17 M and on top of that they paid out £534K on their capital budget - I assume this was the stadium cladding. The Balance Sheet has a line for Creditors, 'amounts falling due after more than one year' of nearly £16 M, up from £13.3 M in 2012. This looks to be the accumulated amount of money that directors have pumped into the club - It makes Simon Moran look like a pauper in comparison, and there was me thinking we had one of the wealthiest backers in SL. The man in question is Mike Coleman (brief intro link: http://www.eurekahedge.co.uk/news/11_Ju ... modity.asp) born in St. Helens, educated in Oxford and now owns and runs a hedge fund, which led to him meeting McManus, and joining the saints board. To the inevitable: what if he pulls the plug? His only options are, given how the debt is accumulated in a shell company, would be to either convert it into shares, and take control or get Saints to pay it back in their own time. Given like McManus, he's a lifelong Saints fan, it puts us in as safe a position as feasibly possible. I won't have the argument about this years figures. I feel there's an awful lot of "setting up" (not "real money" being moved around - like the creation of a 2.3m tax asset) going on ... Ultimately, were run by 2 bankers.

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Fri Aug 22, 2014 8:37 pm  

Magic Superbeetle wrote: The man in question is Mike Coleman (brief intro link: http://www.eurekahedge.co.uk/news/11_Ju ... modity.asp) born in St. Helens, educated in Oxford and now owns and runs a hedge fund. Goodness me, I didn't realise there was so much money in Gardening.

Magic Superbeetle wrote: The man in question is Mike Coleman (brief intro link: http://www.eurekahedge.co.uk/news/11_Ju ... modity.asp) born in St. Helens, educated in Oxford and now owns and runs a hedge fund. Goodness me, I didn't realise there was so much money in Gardening.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Wire 2013 Accounts : Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:35 pm  

Yes, I might start listening to The Archers and see if I can pick up a few tips as well.