: Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:12 am  

You can't use examples of bad signings at Warrington in the past as an argument that future signings will be as bad.

When Tony Smith arrived at Leeds they probably had fans saying "no more imports please" because of Mullins, Clyde etc being expensive disappointments - but Donald, Webb and Leuluai were all amongst the best players in their positions in SL when Smith brought them in.

If you go off Warrington's track record you could make an argument against us doing anything! If we get linked with signing Paul Wellens and Lee Gilmour for next season, you could say no GB internationals please - look at what happened with Reardon and Johnson, that strategy doesn't work.

If Smith wants to fast track some Academy players into the first team you could say when was the last time we brought through an Academy player that made a big impact and won us games? Maybe our track record has proved that using players from Warrington Academy will never get us anywhere.

Re: 3 'Big Names' Wire should be looking at bringing in 2010 : Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:21 am  

RED LEAGUE wrote:

Think of it this way? If the players you sign were any good they wouldn’t have been let go by their previous team would they? Unless a club is having money problems and have to let there top players go due to fanatical reasons, your never going to actually get the top-notch player we all want?

Fanatical reasons, fundermentalistastic.

: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:52 pm  

Personally wouldnt like us to bring any aussies for 2010 , would be looking for young english talent like , burgess , westerman , myler ect but if i had to pic , would be Lyon , Marshall , Luke

: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:08 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

You can't use examples of bad signings at Warrington in the past as an argument that future signings will be as bad.

That's not what I was getting at.

It's already been proven time and time again that expensive Aussie signings are not 'quick-fixes'. Warrington have had a track record of bringing in big names that, regardless of how they play, stay for a handful of years then move on or retire.

Why do Saints do so well? I think a major factor is regardless of the small changes they make each season the core of the St. Helens squad stays the same. You have the veterans: Long, Cunningham, Wellens, Gardener and, until recently: Joynt, Newlove, Sculthorpe etc etc. Even with those players retired, and the oncoming retirement of Long, Cunningham, you can see Saints bringing through the replacements and the players that will continue the legacy: James Graham, Kyle Eastmond, Roby, Wilkin...
The Aussies that are brought in are to compliment the core team, not define it and that makes them sucessful. There is no pressure, they don't have the hopes of an entire club riding on them as, everyone knows, Saints will be sucessful even if one or two Aussie signings don't play up to standard. They are not just a team of players wearing the same shirt, they are a team in the truest sense of the word.

If you look at the positions of Saints core squad: scrum half, hooker, full back... That is what we should be doing. Developing our own players in key roles. That's why I don't think bringing in Aussies is the answer. We need to be developing our own talent in key positions and imports, if needed, should be brought in to compliment those players. We put far to much emphasis on imports and what they can do for us. It's not the answer.

As you've said Sally, we've not really had a huge amount of academy players setting the first team alight recently. Maybe then, in that case, we should be looking at the coaching set up across the board. I don't profess to be an expert on Warrington RLFC, I don't know who signs academy players, but maybe changes are needed there.


Rugbychick

: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:18 pm  

I agree with you to an extent, the problem is that if the talent isn't there in the first place you can't develop it. There's always people saying that we don't give players a chance and if they got the chance they would develop, but we gave Hulse, Gaskell, Mark Gleeson and Bracek lots of first team games and they never got significantly better. The Saints players like Roby and Graham have real raw talent and can develop into top players, same goes for the Leeds ones. Paul Wood turned into a top player at Warrington but the others were limited by the limits on their ability. There's a lot of infrastructure which has been put into our junior set up, and players get all sorts of supervision and coaching, but players are only going to be as good as their potential. Talent identification is the most important thing. The good news is that the club knew this and what you said at the end of your post, about the coaching set up needing looking at across the board, has already happened. Peter Farrell (Andy's Dad) joined us from St Helens a couple of years ago as head of talent identification, and at the end of last season John Bastian came in from Leeds as Director of Youth Development. We've signed two of the top people in the junior set ups of the two clubs whos youth systems we need to be emulating. The benefits of this won't be clear for 2 or 3 seasons yet because of the age of the players they sign up, at the start of the year we announced five junior signings aged 16: http://www.warringtonwolves.org/news/Wolves38507.ink Peter Farrell's comments in that article say it all: "There has been some massive improvement at the club in my time here so far. I think now we are going to kick on to another level. The improvement that I have seen is chalk and cheese really. We've moved forward year on year and I think that is important. We have corrected our mistakes, we're still not 100% but we are working to get there, we are about 2 years ahead at the moment to where I thought we would be. Let's not forget we're not a sexy club, for want of a better word, for youngsters to join. There is a perspective that we are a sleeping giant and we are never waking up but I think we are waking up now and youngsters are keen to join us." "I feel now we've got the right mix with the scholarship, we've improved that year on year from a coaching point of view. We've got the final piece in the jigsaw now with John Bastian onboard. We are all aiming for one thing and that's to get the best team on the field for Warrington as quickly as possible."

I agree with you to an extent, the problem is that if the talent isn't there in the first place you can't develop it. There's always people saying that we don't give players a chance and if they got the chance they would develop, but we gave Hulse, Gaskell, Mark Gleeson and Bracek lots of first team games and they never got significantly better. The Saints players like Roby and Graham have real raw talent and can develop into top players, same goes for the Leeds ones. Paul Wood turned into a top player at Warrington but the others were limited by the limits on their ability. There's a lot of infrastructure which has been put into our junior set up, and players get all sorts of supervision and coaching, but players are only going to be as good as their potential. Talent identification is the most important thing. The good news is that the club knew this and what you said at the end of your post, about the coaching set up needing looking at across the board, has already happened. Peter Farrell (Andy's Dad) joined us from St Helens a couple of years ago as head of talent identification, and at the end of last season John Bastian came in from Leeds as Director of Youth Development. We've signed two of the top people in the junior set ups of the two clubs whos youth systems we need to be emulating. The benefits of this won't be clear for 2 or 3 seasons yet because of the age of the players they sign up, at the start of the year we announced five junior signings aged 16: http://www.warringtonwolves.org/news/Wolves38507.ink Peter Farrell's comments in that article say it all: "There has been some massive improvement at the club in my time here so far. I think now we are going to kick on to another level. The improvement that I have seen is chalk and cheese really. We've moved forward year on year and I think that is important. We have corrected our mistakes, we're still not 100% but we are working to get there, we are about 2 years ahead at the moment to where I thought we would be. Let's not forget we're not a sexy club, for want of a better word, for youngsters to join. There is a perspective that we are a sleeping giant and we are never waking up but I think we are waking up now and youngsters are keen to join us." "I feel now we've got the right mix with the scholarship, we've improved that year on year from a coaching point of view. We've got the final piece in the jigsaw now with John Bastian onboard. We are all aiming for one thing and that's to get the best team on the field for Warrington as quickly as possible."

: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:29 pm  

RED LEAGUE wrote:

Its ok having money fella's, but when you don’t know how to use it you’re never going to get anywhere.
Same old Warrington thinking they can buy success, it doesn’t work like that, Why don’t you try what Leeds and Saints have done? Mixing quality influential players not up there own booty like your lot with young talent? Ever thought that could work?
Buying your Benji Marshall’s and your Darren Lockyers is just making a total mockery out of this franchise system and will continue to ruin our international game!

Interesting idea and one I think Warrington should implement. To do so we will need to:-

- Recruit a head of youth development, maybe from one Leeds?
- Recruit a top coach who has a proven track record of nurturing young players, maybe someone from Leeds?
- Sign up a lot of highly rated young players and blood them through our reserve and academy sides - maybe those teams winning a few games would help demonstrate this
- Start to clear up squad places and cap room by releasing or selling players where appropriate
- Have some sort of system whereby our fans can contribute financially to youth development. Some sort of 'SquadBuidling' system maybe?

Just some ideas. Hope someone at the club is listening...

: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:41 pm  

Ian [77] wrote:

Interesting idea and one I think Warrington should implement. To do so we will need to:-

- Recruit a head of youth development, maybe from one Leeds?
- Recruit a top coach who has a proven track record of nurturing young players, maybe someone from Leeds?
- Sign up a lot of highly rated young players and blood them through our reserve and academy sides - maybe those teams winning a few games would help demonstrate this
- Start to clear up squad places and cap room by releasing or selling players where appropriate
- Have some sort of system whereby our fans can contribute financially to youth development. Some sort of 'SquadBuidling' system maybe?

Just some ideas. Hope someone at the club is listening...

Re: 3 'Big Names' Wire should be looking at bringing in 2010 : Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:44 pm  

Casual Des wrote: 3 names should be on Moran's hitlist for 2010 Benji Marshall Darren Lockyer Karmichael Hunt http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/news/dragons-eye-off-trio/2009/01/15/1231608888607.html With Gleeson's salary cap space freed up, possibly Briers leaving as well and other imports like Rauhihi, Hicks and Anderson off contract, we should target at least one of these big names for 2010. I hope Moran pulls out all the stops and offers them a package they cant turn down. A 300k a year deal, sponsored car and house in Stozza Heath should clinch it! Hunt would be my first choice, he is younger and we need a full back desperately. Either Marshall or Lockyer would do to replace Briers. Marshall has time on his side though and Lockyer would be a short term fix, but the most likely to be tempted over. Thoughts? You know the salary cap isnt 3 million, right?

Casual Des wrote: 3 names should be on Moran's hitlist for 2010 Benji Marshall Darren Lockyer Karmichael Hunt http://www.leaguehq.com.au/news/news/dragons-eye-off-trio/2009/01/15/1231608888607.html With Gleeson's salary cap space freed up, possibly Briers leaving as well and other imports like Rauhihi, Hicks and Anderson off contract, we should target at least one of these big names for 2010. I hope Moran pulls out all the stops and offers them a package they cant turn down. A 300k a year deal, sponsored car and house in Stozza Heath should clinch it! Hunt would be my first choice, he is younger and we need a full back desperately. Either Marshall or Lockyer would do to replace Briers. Marshall has time on his side though and Lockyer would be a short term fix, but the most likely to be tempted over. Thoughts? You know the salary cap isnt 3 million, right?

: Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:46 pm  

Teddington Wire wrote:

Dan Carter; Sam Burgess; Kirk Yeoman.
First two fairly obvious. Yeoman can be the best centre in the competition if he got fit and back to the form of 2007. May just need a change of environment. Can easily fil the boots of Gleeson though, and we can't rely constantly on overseas players. We have to buy british at some point.

Your having a laugh, his last try was from a Paul Cooke pass. He's lost without him.

: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:11 pm  

Michael Shenton
Stephen Myler
Daryll Goulding
Joe Westerman
Sam Tomkins
Ryan Atkins

These are the types of players we should be looking at, not your Lyon's and Orford's.