Re: Rumours 2 : Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:26 pm  

I don't think that ratio of playing internationals is that relevant. We're talking about which players can be long-term difference makers in SL rather than who can win international caps. Briers hardly played for GB at senior level, Danny McGuire didn't get much of an international career but were both influential SL players.

Wood/Cooper, personally I rate Wood higher but don't think there's much in it, if you say Cooper I wouldn't argue.

A rough off-the-top of my head tiering scale for ex Wire Academy products

Tier 1: Harris, Sculthorpe, Currie 2015-16
Tier 2: Wood, Cooper, Hilton, Wainwright
Tier 3: Riley, O'Brien, Patton, Lee Penny
Tier 4: Noone, Sibbit, Mark Gleeson, Toby King, Kevin Penny, Currie post 2017.

Lots of lower tiers of players that weren't really up to it.

Re: Rumours 2 : Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:50 pm  

You've forgotten GB international Joe Philbin.

Re: Rumours 2 : Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:54 pm  

Mark Hilton should NEVER appear on any tier that Mike Cooper inhabits. He should be a fair few rungs below.

Re: Rumours 2 : Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:01 pm  

Philbin tier 3 / 4

Re: Rumours 2 : Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:17 pm  

GB international in with Patton and Noone. Yeah right.

How many games do you get to each season these days Sally?

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:33 am  

ratticusfinch wrote:

Mark Hilton should NEVER appear on any tier that Mike Cooper inhabits. He should be a fair few rungs below.

Exactly what i thought

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:12 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

Philbin tier 3 / 4

Personally I rate him tier 2 on last seasons form.

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:23 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I don't think that ratio of playing internationals is that relevant. We're talking about which players can be long-term difference makers in SL rather than who can win international caps. Briers hardly played for GB at senior level, Danny McGuire didn't get much of an international career but were both influential SL players.

Wood/Cooper, personally I rate Wood higher but don't think there's much in it, if you say Cooper I wouldn't argue.

A rough off-the-top of my head tiering scale for ex Wire Academy products

Tier 1: Harris, Sculthorpe, Currie 2015-16
Tier 2: Wood, Cooper, Hilton, Wainwright
Tier 3: Riley, O'Brien, Patton, Lee Penny
Tier 4: Noone, Sibbit, Mark Gleeson, Toby King, Kevin Penny, Currie post 2017.

Lots of lower tiers of players that weren't really up to it.

There is also a number that don't feature in your list.

Laithwaite, Dywer, Wilde, Ben Evans, Ryhs Evans, Jack Johnson, Glenn Riley, Danny Bridge, Jordan Burke, Saltonstall, Bennion, Pat Moran, Livett, Morgan Smith, George King, Will Dagger.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 08, 2020 11:50 am  

And did he shed a tear for Ben Harrison ?

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: Rumours 2 : Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:55 pm  

Over the period 2004-2016 (13 years) we had a total of 32 academy players making a SL debut. Rating them is difficult and we would never agree on a list of the best products. Perhaps a fairer way of looking at their value might be to set a figure of say 100 SL games played for the club ? If we did that we would end up with;

Chris Riley 181
Ben Harrison 211
Mike Cooper 219
Rhys Evans. 105
Ben Currie 161
Joe Philbin. 120
Dec. Patton 102

Even here there are anomalies as I would say both Evans and Patton have benefited from a lack of quality players in SL available to take their place. Notable exceptions to the list are Brad Dwyer (who must have played over a total of 100 SL games if you include his Leeds stint) and Toby King who will surely reach 100 by the end of the 2020 season. If Laithwaite hadn't been plagued with injuries I suspect he too would have got into the list. But overall, I would have to say that other than Currie, we have not really seen any stand out players in the Sculthorpe /Harris bracket. I think what is very obvious though is the decline in available talent pool for SL, perhaps typified by Rhys Williams getting back to SL with Salford and Kevin Penny making a return with us.

According to SL stats published a few years back, out of a SL Academy intake, only 2 youngsters will make it through to SL standard. From our 32 academy players I would say 16-17 could be said to have played at SL standard for a reasonable period - but we should have seen 26, so we are behind the curve in comparison to other clubs. Similarly, if you look at the '100 club' above you would probably say we have really only produced 5 good quality players that have featured regularly in our 1st 17.

Where have we gone wrong ? Is it lack of intake quality to the Academy or the standard of coaching and training facilities ? As already pointed out, if the coaching was mediocre then there would surely be some players that left the Academy and flourished elsewhere, but that has not happened. Also, we seem to change the Academy head coach every 2-3 years, so you would have thought that at least one of them would have made a difference or that we would have seen years where good quality youngsters came through. So the most likely cause (for me) is the intake, and in the past, having insufficient numbers of youngsters playing in the locality could well have been the most damaging factor.