Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:51 pm  

Abe Froman wrote:

No, not true. There have been no prior negotiations of a pay-off. Such details are already included in coaching contracts. It's common practise for such clauses to be included.

I've read various comments on social media over the past few weeks about DP and the terms ie, someone was adamant that he would have gone but for a £100k pay off he'd demanded, so I can see why some people would think that. But it's not been as complicated.

After the defeat to Wigan on the 14th DP was told there would be a board meeting on Monday 31st if the result against Wakefield wasn't favourable. So after yesterdays game he was invited to the meeting, knowing his time was at an end. He then went in to the press conference and said what he said. He then resigned straight after it, and was told that he was being sacked anyway. So the club weren't going to announce the decision until after the meeting this morning, but then decided to announce it last night due to the news getting out. And before anyone says anything, yes it was me that leaked it. But if I hadn't someone else would have done so, and the same announcement would have been made.

Please don't bombard me with PM's asking about the next coach, as I don't know. I have been told of a shortlist, but that has 4 or 5 names on it of the obvious choices that are currently being discussed on social media. No doubt i'll find out what's happening as things progress.

Quack Quack.

Thank you for your insight, as always. Understated and factual, no trumpet blowing or ego - just the details.

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:52 pm  

karetaker wrote:

Actually like this post from our friend Saddened.

Warrington's approach is fine, the problem is the staff making the decisions and setting the culture at the top of the club and the coaching. They're investing heavily in staff, players and their academy. Their academy has been criticised for years, but it's vastly improved. They're getting a lot of the big reputation players from Yorkshire and Cumbria now instead of Leeds/Saints/Wigan and they are putting together consistently good youth sides. They lack in bringing them through at the moment as Powell just wasn't about that, he's got more of a Mourinho approach.

They invest heavily in players. They use their quotas and exemptions to the full and they really push the boat out. As I've said the selection of players and perhaps more importantly character is wayward however. But you really can't fault their determination, just their decisions.

If they were to sack Fitzpatrick and replace him with a competent CEO and a Director of Rugby type who could oversee recruitment and youth integration and a competent coach, they would win Super League regularly. Culture is another area that they need to improve on, but that comes from the top. When you've got an absolute chancer like Fitzpatrick at the top of the operational functioning of the club, it's not hard to see why it's unprofessional. There are some horrific tales about how lenient the club are with the players and their non-rugby activities. Last season when they started losing, a lot were blaming it on Powell telling the players they weren't allowed to miss training whenever they needed to in order to deal with their own businesses. They said it was like an amateur side, where certain sessions would have 8 or 9 missing as they were off doing other things.

They have spent more money than anyone over the last 25 years and will continue to do so. Wigan will now match them after their changes. Eventually Warrington will realise their errors and fix them. If they don't, you'd have to question Moran's sanity.

Absolute chancer is an excellent description.

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 12:52 pm  

Uncle Rico wrote:

Has the bloke from Bake Off also gone or is it just Powell?

Gone as well.

[Uncle Rico]

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:10 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

Oh they'll turn it on for Catalans for sure, then back to as you were. All Instagram and testimonials. Playing well around contract extension time. The little darlings play when they want. Just as they did under Price.

Powell was a decent man and cared. I don't think he was a bad coach either as evidenced by Castleford making a GF, just our problems are more ingrained and fundamental. Systemic even. I just hope after the shock he can feel that weight lifting off his shoulders.

I can agree with some of your comments about him probably being a "decent man" that "cared", (although I don't know him personally) but think that at Warrington he was a bad coach.

Whether that's because he's simply a bad coach, or a bad 'fit' for us remains to be seen particularly if he gets a chance elsewhere in SL. However, as a minimum you'd have to question his man management skills, apparent loyalty to underachievers, and bagging young players publicly.

All part of a coaches remit that also include taking responsibility for the situation the team finds themselves in on a week by week basis and as part of a longer term planned strategy of improvement. It appeared that he readily relinquished that responsibility which made his position untenable IMO.

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:26 pm  

Uncle Rico wrote:

I can agree with some of your comments about him probably being a "decent man" that "cared", (although I don't know him personally) but think that at Warrington he was a bad coach.

However, as a minimum you'd have to question his man management skills, apparent loyalty to underachievers, and bagging young players publicly.

Yes I agree with those points. He also used excuses a lot. But we knew that before he came. He later refined his excuse technique to "I could go on about injuries and suspensions but ..." to try and kid everyone that he was not making excuses but he was. To be honest last night I stumbled on a press conference from the Wakefield game in 2022 when we lost 30-24. It was so similar.

The thing I don't understand is what the heck happened after the 8 games? We weren't playing stellar but were winning and we looked up for it.

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:27 pm  

So...the Powell experience.

I'd been a big advocate for Powell on here for a while and wanted him as our coach after Smith, which was unrealistic because his Cas team were the best team in the league at the time and he'd never have come to us then. So I was very pleased we got him after Price. He had a track record of improving multiple clubs...he transformed Leeds from being big name underachievers to a hungry young team which TS then took forward to glory. He made Featherstone the dominant team in the Championship. Then he took a Cas team which was going down under Ian Millward and in 4 years despite not having much money and having to sell his best players, took them to top of the league and the Grand Final.

So why did things go wrong so badly with us?

1. Powell may be past his time as a coach in SL. It happens. Sometimes the game moves on and a coach isn't able to achieve the things they used to. It happened to Millward at Wigan and Cas, it happened to Noble at Salford, it happened to TS towards the end of his time with us. There were signs that it was starting to happen to Powell towards the end of his time in Cas.

2. The Cas players he brought over failed. When a new coach is coming in bringing in his new methods its helpful to bring a few of his trusted generals over to help bring the new culture into the dressing room and act as on field advocates for the coach. Especially important when you've been brought in for a mandate to change things like Powell had. But you really need those guys to succeed, otherwise it immediately gets the existing players' backs up because they think the new coach has brought in his old cronies who aren't as good as us. Whether through injury or lack of form or just being past their best as players, these trusted generals were flops.

3. Recruitment generally was poor. Whether this is Powell's fault or somebody else's fault I don't know, poor recruitment at Wire has predated Powell. But if you're going to do a big dressing room clear out - which we needed - you have to make sure the guys you bring in are better than the guys you move on. We didn't, we brought in an inferior set of players. Reminds me of Graeme Souness at Liverpool being brought in to clear out an aging dressing room which he'd inherited from Dalglish, and then signing a load of players who were nowhere near Liverpool standard. It can cripple the club. We already did this once before at the end of the DVDV era when we basically cleared out talented but underachieving side and then Steve Anderson brought in a load of Championship standard players. Cullen then had to come in and deal with Kevin Crouthers, Matt Sturm under contract.

4. Players having grievances. I don't know the ins and outs here but we are getting enough snippets being fed to the press by ex players and those around them that players are leaving Warrington with grievances about the way they are being treated. I don't know whether this is a case of prima donna players not being used to not getting their own way, or the club being unreasonable in the way they treat players. But whatever the reason, if players feel aggrieved you have a locker room who isn't pulling together for the team and you're going to keep losing. The only way out of that is just to move those players on and get in a group of players who are happy. Unfortunately we seem to have moved out a lot of players last year with grievances but then the new guys have grievances too.

There are probably more reasons that others could add but those are the main ones for me.

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:44 pm  

What baffles me is that we looked very promising after those first 8 games. Still much to improve but looking good.

Then the perfect storm arrived. We were reduced in the pack prior to key games against Wigan and Saints. And concurrently, there was the Mcguire shenanigans which split the players in the camp and this was, to me, the most damaging.

I've stook up for Powell because, like Sally and sone others, believed we were getting a good coach. I still don't think he's as bad as some make out but far from perfect at the same time.

Without the 'perfect storm'. Ie. going into those 2 games with more forwards available (remember, we weren't that far off in either game), and the main issue regarding the split in the camp, I'm certain things would have panned out differently. But sadly we'll never know.

Let's just hope our new manager can most importantly build the team spirit again and get players to re-bond and put the Mcguire thing behind us.

Fingers crossed everything sorts itself out.

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:49 pm  

Clearly Powell had to go but at the same time I am disappointed that once again player power has won. Like the post from saddened the club has spent heavily (maybe not wisely) and the players dictate what happens when they don't like what's going on. Same thing happened at Saints with Cunningham and we have seen Tony Smith take the underperforming Cullen and Lowes team to three challenge cups, LLS and grand finals. When we won the challenge cup in 2019 it was the players that decided what games they want to play and what games they don't. I just wonder how much money was on the table prior to the challenge cup final in 2019.

I thought the Powell project was the right way to go. We had all heard the rumours about players and I hadn't seen the footage until wires71 shared the clip of Cooper barging into Price in that semi final but we cannot accept stuff like that. I was quite happy for players to be moved on and to clear the decks but the McGuire fiasco appears to have created a rift that Powell was unable to heal.

Unfortunately we are never going to pay off a complete squad of players and get a whole new squad in, it will always be the coach that takes the fall and a lot of the players know that all too well.

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:53 pm  

Deus Dat Incrementum wrote:

Clearly Powell had to go but at the same time I am disappointed that once again player power has won. Like the post from saddened the club has spent heavily (maybe not wisely) and the players dictate what happens when they don't like what's going on. Same thing happened at Saints with Cunningham and we have seen Tony Smith take the underperforming Cullen and Lowes team to three challenge cups, LLS and grand finals. When we won the challenge cup in 2019 it was the players that decided what games they want to play and what games they don't. I just wonder how much money was on the table prior to the challenge cup final in 2019.

I thought the Powell project was the right way to go. We had all heard the rumours about players and I hadn't seen the footage until wires71 shared the clip of Cooper barging into Price in that semi final but we cannot accept stuff like that. I was quite happy for players to be moved on and to clear the decks but the McGuire fiasco appears to have created a rift that Powell was unable to heal.

Unfortunately we are never going to pay off a complete squad of players and get a whole new squad in, it will always be the coach that takes the fall and a lot of the players know that all too well.

If the players start that game, then you need to have the balls to drop them or send them into the wilderness on loan. Not pander to them. Imagine Shaun Wane pandering to players?

I'd rather lose playing Green giving his all, than lose playing Dudson taking the mickey (and then moaning about not being able to drop him) for example.

PS : The Cooper barge was basically our chance to sneak a look into the problems within - manifested for all to see. Price played it down and Cooper faced no action. The optics of it were terrible and I still think it persists. Until that attitude is rooted out once and for all, we will never compete for the big prize. Could you imagine Shaun Wane being barged into...?

Re: Powel has been sacked : Mon Jul 31, 2023 1:53 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

So...the Powell experience.

I'd been a big advocate for Powell on here for a while and wanted him as our coach after Smith, which was unrealistic because his Cas team were the best team in the league at the time and he'd never have come to us then. So I was very pleased we got him after Price. He had a track record of improving multiple clubs...he transformed Leeds from being big name underachievers to a hungry young team which TS then took forward to glory. He made Featherstone the dominant team in the Championship. Then he took a Cas team which was going down under Ian Millward and in 4 years despite not having much money and having to sell his best players, took them to top of the league and the Grand Final.

So why did things go wrong so badly with us?

1. Powell may be past his time as a coach in SL. It happens. Sometimes the game moves on and a coach isn't able to achieve the things they used to. It happened to Millward at Wigan and Cas, it happened to Noble at Salford, it happened to TS towards the end of his time with us. There were signs that it was starting to happen to Powell towards the end of his time in Cas.

2. The Cas players he brought over failed. When a new coach is coming in bringing in his new methods its helpful to bring a few of his trusted generals over to help bring the new culture into the dressing room and act as on field advocates for the coach. Especially important when you've been brought in for a mandate to change things like Powell had. But you really need those guys to succeed, otherwise it immediately gets the existing players' backs up because they think the new coach has brought in his old cronies who aren't as good as us. Whether through injury or lack of form or just being past their best as players, these trusted generals were flops.

3. Recruitment generally was poor. Whether this is Powell's fault or somebody else's fault I don't know, poor recruitment at Wire has predated Powell. But if you're going to do a big dressing room clear out - which we needed - you have to make sure the guys you bring in are better than the guys you move on. We didn't, we brought in an inferior set of players. Reminds me of Graeme Souness at Liverpool being brought in to clear out an aging dressing room which he'd inherited from Dalglish, and then signing a load of players who were nowhere near Liverpool standard. It can cripple the club. We already did this once before at the end of the DVDV era when we basically cleared out talented but underachieving side and then Steve Anderson brought in a load of Championship standard players. Cullen then had to come in and deal with Kevin Crouthers, Matt Sturm under contract.

4. Players having grievances. I don't know the ins and outs here but we are getting enough snippets being fed to the press by ex players and those around them that players are leaving Warrington with grievances about the way they are being treated. I don't know whether this is a case of prima donna players not being used to not getting their own way, or the club being unreasonable in the way they treat players. But whatever the reason, if players feel aggrieved you have a locker room who isn't pulling together for the team and you're going to keep losing. The only way out of that is just to move those players on and get in a group of players who are happy. Unfortunately we seem to have moved out a lot of players last year with grievances but then the new guys have grievances too.

There are probably more reasons that others could add but those are the main ones for me.

Your 4th point is the one that intrigues me, this whole business of unhappy players is something we seem to have had for years and now in more recent times we have comments about the coach losing the dressing room etc etc. wires71 says we need a Director of rugby for me he is right because the issues we are having regarding players needs to be dealt with asap, we can’t have players being the controllers. Having a Director he can hopefully deal with these issues and keep the players focused on playing and the coach just cracks on with the training.

Before Smith came to the club the culture at Warrington was way beyond poor we all know the stories etc and I believe it’s still here in some ways. We need a complete clear out and stop the jobs for the boys thing until all the old remnants of the time before and during Smith have gone.