Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:35 pm  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

I'd imagine in a salary capped sport, it's almost impossible that one man has total control over recruitment.

I'd reckon it would have to be the case of the coach & director of Rugby being in very close discussion - Coach tells DofR what type of style he's looking to play, gives a long list of players he'd like in order to play that style and then DofR goes off and plays fantasy football, compiling a squad from the coach's list, while keeping within confines of the cap.

No disrespect to the individuals concerned, but I'm 99.9% sure that the likes of Russell or Minikin wouldn't have been anywhere near the top of Powell's wanted list - They merely fitted within the salary cap.

If you look throughout SL, most squads are padded out with very average players, so ultimately its quite difficult to pin any problems on one person - you could nail the coach for not making the most of his squad, but can also blame the DofR for not signing the right players from the list, and also the club in general for not finding the best youngsters to feed the first team from the academy.

If you look at Russell then, against Thewlis and Ashton (Plan A), the style of play is obviously to have pace on the wings. Russell is the polar opposite, not a lot of pace, not really a winger if we’re honest, but more of a workhorse ball carrier who is really effective coming away from the line making hard yards. So, either Fitzpatrick got him because he’s cheap and that coach has him forced upon him, or the plan/preference on style goes out of the window when someone shows an interest at a good price.

The same could be said of Fitzgibbon, who doesn’t really fit the mould of the current second row style.

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Mon Jul 03, 2023 6:28 pm  

We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress

We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:13 pm  

In the interim, before we change the academy set up, I would like to see the players we have playing to the best of their ability. This is not currently happening.

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:59 pm  

Deus Dat Incrementum wrote: We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress Perfect, nailed on. With the money we've lavished and wasted on Hollywood signings, vanity projects, has-beens and non-entities we could have funded an elite academy and lured the best amateur talent in Britain and France tp the club and built a legacy.

Deus Dat Incrementum wrote: We might get lucky and it all comes together but the last 20 years have shown us that it is difficult to buy success in a salary capped sport. We have signed the best English talent that we could have in competing with NRL salaries in Morley, Gleeson, Clark, Williams etc Look at the list of former kangaroos. king, Monaghan, Gidley, Maguire, Inglis, Johns. Waterhouse etc But the one thing that we can't get right is the conveyor belt. I am sure there is a lot of people doing some great work but I just don't think we get it right. Other clubs have raided Widnes (Mainly Halton Farnsworth) over the years and managed to persuade some real talent to join them yet they are just up the road from us. so what is stopping them from joining us. Is it because they know we will go and sign a a Williams, Clark instead of giving them a chance We have to use the same model that Penrith have employed. Teams like Souths, Sharks, Cowboys have had one grand final win but not managed a dominant period like storm and Roosters. Penrith have gone about their business differently and managed to produce a model that works. I am pretty sure a couple of years ago they won every title from Academy, Reserves and first grade in the same year https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-03/ ... /100510414 So we need to identify the talent but we also need to show them that if the join our academy that we will play them and give them a decent chance and not just go out and sign the next big name player that comes available. A couple of years ago there was a thread about St Helens signing a load of rylands players. Last time I looked their academy team were top of the league and still contains loads of these Rylands players. It will be interesting to see how they progress Perfect, nailed on. With the money we've lavished and wasted on Hollywood signings, vanity projects, has-beens and non-entities we could have funded an elite academy and lured the best amateur talent in Britain and France tp the club and built a legacy.

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:30 pm  

Barbed Wire wrote:

If you look at Russell then, against Thewlis and Ashton (Plan A), the style of play is obviously to have pace on the wings. Russell is the polar opposite, not a lot of pace, not really a winger if we’re honest, but more of a workhorse ball carrier who is really effective coming away from the line making hard yards. So, either Fitzpatrick got him because he’s cheap and that coach has him forced upon him, or the plan/preference on style goes out of the window when someone shows an interest at a good price.

The same could be said of Fitzgibbon, who doesn’t really fit the mould of the current second row style.

I think you're being harsh on Russell there.
He asked the club to give him a chance to prove himself (via Ratchford) and signed on a (allegedly) low salary - and the original intention was that he would be used as back up, but his form over winter warranted a starting role - ahead of Thewlis.
Matty was ill days before the first match and hence Thewlis started.

Matty may not be the fastest in the Wire squad, but I think he'd give everyone except Ashton a run for their money - certainly over short and medium distances.
For me signing him was a no-brainer as a back up. He's experienced and is a decent finisher. He's a good returner of the ball too.
His major weakness is/was dealing with the high ball, and the first time he was with us he couldn't handle it and went downhill. His head was all over the place. (This was reported in an interview he gave last year).
I've not seen that weakness exploited too much this year.
Wing is his best position in my view.
He's sorted his mental state out in the years away from Warrington and has come back a much more mature player.

Make no doubt about it, the future is Thewlis and Ashton but you'll always need 'the Russells' of this world in a squad.
He certainly wasn't forced on the team by anyone.

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:37 am  

Dita's Slot Meter wrote:

Genuine question. If, in the future, we become, as seems possible, exempt from relegation, do you reckon the fans would put up with 3 or 4 years of finishing bottom or thereabouts, if it meant we could blood far more youngsters and then eventually have a side which can be successful, if that's what it had to take?

No team has spent 3 or 4 years of finishing near the bottom with youngsters then their youngsters suddenly become good and they win the title. Wigan, Saints, Leeds didn't do that. If you're finishing near the bottom with a load of youngsters then those youngsters probably aren't very good.

The issue with young players is are they good enough. A lot of home grown Wire players have had 50+ first team games with us and never turn into players who can influence SL games, they then spend the rest of their careers at smaller clubs or in the lower leagues. Those guys would not have had so many games if they'd been at Wigan, Saints or Leeds because there is always more talent coming up the production line so less good home grown players get moved on more quickly. Wigan didn't look at Matty Russell and say if we give this kid 4 seasons in the first team he might become the next Radlinski.

When this question about blooding youngsters came up once before I looked through our season records to see if there were any eras where we were more willing to give youngsters a shot. Cullen did - early on he brought back guys like Sibbit, Mark Gleeson and Warren Stevens, he had Riley in the first team aged 17, Penny at 18, even when we were starting to load up on stars he was pushing through guys like Pickersgill and Cooper.

The other time when we did this was the mid/later Tony Smith era where we brought through a lot of young players: GO'B, Currie, Patton, Toby and George King, Rhys and Ben Evans, Ormsby, Dwyer, Laithwaite.

The thought experiment to consider is if we'd basically kept all those guys together and made them the core of the first team, would they have been any better over the next few years than the team we had with Steve Price which made several finals and won the Challenge Cup...?

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:11 pm  

I agree it is not the coach dropping balls or throwing stupid passes. What concerns me however is the cause of those problems and lack of seif/team belief seems to be the root cause. This was the case last season as well but was put down to bad apples/ off contract players etc. This esaeoson the coach largely has his stamp on the squad but the same problem of lack of belief rears its head and that is where a good coach earns his corn. Strikes me the coach can see the problem but not the answer. I am very concerned that this season is going to descend into ignominy (but hopefully not relegation). Were I in charge I would be lining up a replacement and giving him the final 1/3 of this season to bed in.

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:36 pm  

I think the club have had a lack of mental resilience for many years and I'm not sure any coach has been able to overcome that.
This was raised (iirc) in the TS years during the playoffs and after GF losses.

I hate to say it but Wigan and Saints have a built-in resilience - have had it for many years. It's something throughout tne club, not just with the 1st team.
But it can be 'lost' - just ask Leeds and Bulls.

If Matty Peet or Paul Wellens were our coach would we suddenly have that resilience? I think not.
It's not down to one person.

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Tue Jul 04, 2023 5:09 pm  

fez1 wrote:

I think the club have had a lack of mental resilience for many years and I'm not sure any coach has been able to overcome that.
This was raised (iirc) in the TS years during the playoffs and after GF losses.

I hate to say it but Wigan and Saints have a built-in resilience - have had it for many years. It's something throughout tne club, not just with the 1st team.
But it can be 'lost' - just ask Leeds and Bulls.

If Matty Peet or Paul Wellens were our coach would we suddenly have that resilience? I think not.
It's not down to one person.

I don't disagree but where is it? Does it permeate all the performance team or wider?

Re: How Important Is The Coach? : Sat Jul 08, 2023 6:38 pm  

Good point - I simply don't know.