Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:20 am  

I don't think Dufty is the reason we lost against Catalan.
I know games are not won on paper but we had more possession. Better completion rate, less errors, less penalties conceded, conceded less line breaks, less missed tackles.
We lost that game simply on our inability to defend last tackle plays. I don't remember them busting us open on tackles 1-4 all game but we just couldn't defend the last play.
There are lots of things that contribute to that. The main one for me is when we play against a team where they have powerful three-quarters we struggle to restrict metres. Against Cas, Hull FC, London we were driving back their wingers and centres early in the tackle count. Against those teams Dufty and Thewlis were fielding kicks without any defender within 10 metres of them.
But against Hull KR when we struggle to contain Ryan Hall or against Catalan with Johnstone and Davies almost every last play was a contest and a threat. I like Holroyd and his last ditch tackle an Mcilotum was brilliant but that game was another level for him. Tai didn't quite offer the block protection for Thewlis when fielding kicks and there were a lot of other things we could have done better like putting pressure on Abdul so that his kicks wouldn't have been as accurate.
Overall I am not too down about the result. Better to get a whack in the ear now and learn from it. (As long as we do learn from it)

[Fantastic Mr Catpiss]

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 10:51 am  

Bunkaib wrote:

Fine with Medicine just not swallowing the sh*t some are shovelling.

Let's get it right it's mistakes singular and yes it's a bit of a habit but it is massively better than before.

"Amazing tries now and again" and "main contribution being tries conceded through fear of being hurt." Do me a favour second best try scorer in super league, top metre maker, top tackle Breaker. That's more than the odd try and it's only the odd mistake. That's before even get on to his contribution to attack generally.

Dufty brings far more than he gives away.

Anyone that steps across the line to play rugby league puts their body on the line and fullbacks in particular are a position where they get clattered again and again, lost count of the number of times Dufty got smacked in that Catalan game alone.

What grinds my gears most is he's been the form fullback in super league, but even when he's playing well people are moaning, when he scored his try against Cas people behind me were moaning oh he doesn't like a pass does he, or greedy there. People just seem to be waiting to get on his back because he doesn't fit the mould of Fullback they want a Hodgson or a Penny (Lee that is).

He's the player he is and if it were true that he is more of a liability than an asset I'd call it but I don't feel he gets a fair crack.

I'm glad he's a wire.

actually, i've come back to this, you mention hodgson there, there's no way Bert would have neshed out of that tackle, granted he might have got himself KTFO'd but theres no way he would have just let the winger take an easy pick up and caused the entire ground to groan at the same time.

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 11:41 am  

Chris McKean wrote:

Dufty brings more than he gives away against the bottom half of the table but I'm not sure that's the case against the top teams. Last season we had 9 league games against the teams who finished 1-4. Dufty scored 2 tries and provided 3 assists in those games. I can think of at least 2 times when he cost us a try in those games because he backed out of even attempting to make a tackle or catch a contested high ball. That's just off the top of my head.

And I don't care how much someone provides in terms of attack. It's not unreasonable to expect them to at least attempt to make a tackle or catch a contested ball. Going for it and failing is one thing. Not even trying is another.

Ah the flat track bully argument, because everyone else was so good in those top 4 games.

What's his stats against the top four teams this year, he's already surpassed last year in 3 games. So you're flat track bully argument is tosh.

We're playing a system that plays to his strengths, he made a single mistake in a game that for me wasn't the cause, (in fact he was behind video ref for me)

He does go for kicks, he does try for last ditch tackles, but he also sometimes makes a bad decision and leaves them I could show you a dozen examples of other super league fullbacks doing the same.

I wouldn't have another SL fullback (or even Lee Penny ) and I do feel that we are quick to get on his back for very little this year when we should celebrating what he is doing this year.

For me the Dufty debate is a non starter, the right edge defence is the main issue but I'm hoping we can get some consistency there we will be there or there abouts. I thought DDIs analysis was spot on.

I think the next two games will tell us an awful lot about our season.

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 11:46 am  

I agree with Wires71 in that he made a poor attempt to swipe the ball and go the length - but I don't think he even fully committed to that plan. The correct play was to put the brakes on a little, allow Johnstone to collect it and wrap him up or at the very least slow him down. Still glad we've got him though.

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:03 pm  

Fantastic Mr Catpiss wrote:

actually, i've come back to this, you mention hodgson there, there's no way Bert would have neshed out of that tackle, granted he might have got himself KTFO'd but theres no way he would have just let the winger take an easy pick up and caused the entire ground to groan at the same time.

I think that is what is the crux of the problem. I was a big Brett fan (never saw Bert play), a goalkicking fullback, brave as a lion that could also throw a decent pass.

That is not Matt Dufty (except for the decent pass)

However I do believe he has strengths that can get us to the top. I remember watching the out of your league podcast with Gleese and he talked about building teams to get the best out of certain players and skillets.

I think that criticising Dufty for the odd missed catch or tackle is fine, I get it it's frustrating, but I feel the level of stick he gets and the quickness that people revert to the Dufty chickens out or Dufty is a poor defensive full back isn't proportionate, isn't Wires worst problem and is down to perception of what a fullback rugby player should be rather than what is actually going on.

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 12:36 pm  

Deus Dat Incrementum wrote:

I don't think Dufty is the reason we lost against Catalan.

Yep, I agree. I'm not trying to pin all the blame on Dufty for us losing on Saturday. Just pointing out an incident that is part of a wider issue with his attitude.

Bunkaib wrote:

Ah the flat track bully argument, because everyone else was so good in those top 4 games.

What's his stats against the top four teams this year, he's already surpassed last year in 3 games. So you're flat track bully argument is tosh.

We're currently in the top 4 so there are only 3 other teams, of which we have played 1 twice, as you know. He has scored a try in each game against Catalan but also cost us a try in each game by not even attempting to contest kicks so I'm not sure how that is tosh. I imagine it will look the same after we have played Wigan and Saints

Bunkaib wrote:

He does go for kicks, he does try for last ditch tackles, but he also sometimes makes a bad decision and leaves them I could show you a dozen examples of other super league fullbacks doing the same.

I would love you to show me another dozen examples of what we saw from Dufty on Saturday as I think you'll struggle to find any clubs bar the bottom few where this had occurred. The only other player with similar tendencies is Field, but he seems to have gotten better in those situations since he first came into superleague.

Bunkaib wrote:

I think the next two games will tell us an awful lot about our season.

I agree but would extend the period into the 2nd June. At that point we will have played Wigan as well. And also Catalans a third time before we have even played Wigan which is just stupid.

I know Duftys strengths. I'm not trying to say he is a terrible player. In attack he is fantastic but I'll never be on board with someone who wimps out of certain situations because it's those types of players that usually end up costing you the big, tight games.

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 1:10 pm  

Chris McKean wrote:

Yep, I agree. I'm not trying to pin all the blame on Dufty for us losing on Saturday. Just pointing out an incident that is part of a wider issue with his attitude.

We're currently in the top 4 so there are only 3 other teams, of which we have played 1 twice, as you know. He has scored a try in each game against Catalan but also cost us a try in each game by not even attempting to contest kicks so I'm not sure how that is tosh. I imagine it will look the same after we have played Wigan and Saints



I would love you to show me another dozen examples of what we saw from Dufty on Saturday as I think you'll struggle to find any clubs bar the bottom few where this had occurred. The only other player with similar tendencies is Field, but he seems to have gotten better in those situations since he first came into superleague.

I agree but would extend the period into the 2nd June. At that point we will have played Wigan as well. And also Catalans a third time before we have even played Wigan which is just stupid.

I know Duftys strengths. I'm not trying to say he is a terrible player. In attack he is fantastic but I'll never be on board with someone who wimps out of certain situations because it's those types of players that usually end up costing you the big, tight games.

For top 4 read last year's top 4 for comparison ie HKR and he only has 1 against Catalans but yeah let's see after Wigan and Saints, but I'm certain his record will be better this year.

I think I can quite comfortably find a dozen incidents in Super League of players letting a ball bounce or not going for a high ball. I'd also agree with you on Field in that he is a similar (yet not as good) player as Dufty and that his defence has improved particularly his cover tackle I don't get why you can't see the same in Dufty.

I understand your frustations with Dufty and that these don't frustrate me as much because of his positives, and I really hope that you aren't right that it costs us in a big game, and that we are talking about how Duftys try won us a GF/challenge cup.

What I genuinely hope for is that we don't have to have these discussions and that our major issues is the trophy cabinet is too small and the bill for cleaning our silverware is crippling.

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 3:04 pm  

Chris McKean wrote:

Dufty brings more than he gives away against the bottom half of the table but I'm not sure that's the case against the top teams. Last season we had 9 league games against the teams who finished 1-4. Dufty scored 2 tries and provided 3 assists in those games. I can think of at least 2 times when he cost us a try in those games because he backed out of even attempting to make a tackle or catch a contested high ball. That's just off the top of my head.

And I don't care how much someone provides in terms of attack. It's not unreasonable to expect them to at least attempt to make a tackle or catch a contested ball. Going for it and failing is one thing. Not even trying is another.

Hang on we’re not talking 2nd half of the season Ben Barba style defence!

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Tue Apr 02, 2024 6:03 pm  

Dufty plain and simple on three occasions has chickened out of attempting to catch a high ball.. that’s not a mistake that’s a problem within Dufty himself.. as good as he has been these last few months it doesn’t excuse him for not having the balls to make a decent effort catching the high ball..

Re: Today’s game v Catalan : Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:22 am  

Douglas Black wrote:

Jeez. One poor tackle. Will this be harked on about for years like his two errors in the cup a few years back?

The only one harking on about past errors is you.

His tackle attempt in that game was pretty poor and cost a try, hence my comment. I think most reasonable posters on here would agree with me.