Was anyone really surprised by the performance against Fev? : Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:04 am  

It has been coming for weeks, the dressing room cannot be a happy place to be new recruits on 3, 4 or even 5 times the salary of those who have sweated blood for the club in the early part of the season.
We were out thought, out enthused, out run, out of our depth and subsequently out of the competition.
In the last few weeks I have become a little suspect of John Duffy's coaching ability, early day's it was easy nobody was in expectation of anything all he had to say and do was get out there lads and give it your all, having done that and got into a position whereas he has to guide the team, come up with strategies and gameplay to press claim with the better teams his tactics and selections have been somewhat wanting, and his man management must also come into question as per my opening paragraph.
We need a coach in my opinion who has no history or connection at all with the club, indeed our last four Rowley, Jukes, Purtill and now Duffy have all sat in the dressing donning their kit, and I never have thought they have got out of being one of the boy's, I think it is time to ditch that approach and employ someone who will be a disciplinarian where the playing side of the club his is domain, and no other influences can interfere, if we are to take a lot of this team on into 2020 then we most definitely need a new coach, more of the same is simply not good enough.

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:42 am  

Harry Stottle wrote:

It has been coming for weeks, the dressing room cannot be a happy place to be new recruits on 3, 4 or even 5 times the salary of those who have sweated blood for the club in the early part of the season.
We were out thought, out enthused, out run, out of our depth and subsequently out of the competition.
In the last few weeks I have become a little suspect of John Duffy's coaching ability, early day's it was easy nobody was in expectation of anything all he had to say and do was get out there lads and give it your all, having done that and got into a position whereas he has to guide the team, come up with strategies and gameplay to press claim with the better teams his tactics and selections have been somewhat wanting, and his man management must also come into question as per my opening paragraph.
We need a coach in my opinion who has no history or connection at all with the club, indeed our last four Rowley, Jukes, Purtill and now Duffy have all sat in the dressing donning their kit, and I never have thought they have got out of being one of the boy's, I think it is time to ditch that approach and employ someone who will be a disciplinarian where the playing side of the club his is domain, and no other influences can interfere, if we are to take a lot of this team on into 2020 then we most definitely need a new coach, more of the same is simply not good enough.

Can’t fault anything you have said. Brown and Woods supposedly a super league half back combination totally outplayed. What has Woods done all season? No creativity, and a kicking game that just consists of boring up and understand easily diffused, with no short kick offs until the match is lost.

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 am  

Surprised calls for the coach, surely you need to look elsewhere as this is a systemic problem that has happened with all of the coaches you mention. Surely it's time to question the more to the front the owner came the weaker the team became..

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:00 am  

No. Deja Vu on so many levels from Beaumont dumping an influx of has-beens onto an inexperienced coach who can't make his mind up what to do with them all. Sound familiar? And wasn't the game reminiscent of the Widnes game, completely outcoached in relation to the conditions? Perfectly executed game plan by Ryan Carr and his troops.

Time for a larger investment on a better coach instead of scrimping on the most important member of the team!

Maybe Purtill would have done a much better job this year.

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:08 am  

I think we may be over-complicating this. Because of Saints' success, they took back their D/R's, to bolster their play-off squad. Those young D/R's fitted in perfectly (much to my surprise) with the ethos of togetherness that was in our squad, from the word go. Consequently, we had to get new players from somewhere, to make up our numbers. As it happened, very few of those additions were able to contribute to the cause, for whatever reason.

Look at Fev last night. Their D/R arrangement with Leeds, meant that they could retain their D/R's as Leeds were never going to be anywhere near the play-offs. In their squad last night, they had from Leeds, Golding; (outstanding player) Sutcliffe; (2 tries) McClelland (kicked us to death, and even had a better game than Chisholm) and Albert. (an international prop)

Our 'circumstances' at the beginning of the season, were always likely to come back and bite us, when the inevitable injuries, and non-availability of D/R's kicked in. I guess the big disappointment was that the newcomers didn't have the time/ability to fit in. The other disappointment for me, was that some of those newcomers replaced key players who had got us into the top four, and who weren't, apparently, injured.

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:24 am  

Centurino wrote:

No. Deja Vu on so many levels from Beaumont dumping an influx of has-beens onto an inexperienced coach who can't make his mind up what to do with them all. Sound familiar? And wasn't the game reminiscent of the Widnes game, completely outcoached in relation to the conditions? Perfectly executed game plan by Ryan Carr and his troops.

Time for a larger investment on a better coach instead of scrimping on the most important member of the team!

Maybe Purtill would have done a much better job this year.

Surely this season would have been better served consolidating our position and giving Duffy time to grow as a coach?

When there was a sniff of SL and the money offered, our owner started "putting his hand in his pocket" (and as you say) - Overpaying for overpriced, over the hill players who came in and destroyed all sense of togetherness built over the first 3months.

I would have far more seen how the young and local lads did when given the full season, yes the D/R hurt us but the route we took was just the same old cycle of poop which put us on the brink. We never ever learn.. No Cunningham to blame so the knives come out for Duffy - Considering he got us to top 4 with a part time squad he can't be that bad, maybe a growing influence from outside started to derail the team he built?

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:01 am  

Draexnael wrote:

Surely this season would have been better served consolidating our position and giving Duffy time to grow as a coach?

Just an opinion. No. Like Jukes before, if and when Leigh get to SL, Duffy has no experience and so the inevitable overwhelm will manifest and the decisions become weird! Derek obviously has the cash and the desire, so why not just get the right coach in now and get the job done sooner rather than later. Seems he's hell-bent on frivolously spending money on players and lots of them, but not on the main man.

I personally believe Purtill would have been a better option this year, due to the SL experience, albeit as an assistant coach.

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:44 pm  

Draexnael wrote:

Surely this season would have been better served consolidating our position and giving Duffy time to grow as a coach?

When there was a sniff of SL and the money offered, our owner started "putting his hand in his pocket" (and as you say) - Overpaying for overpriced, over the hill players who came in and destroyed all sense of togetherness built over the first 3months.

I would have far more seen how the young and local lads did when given the full season, yes the D/R hurt us but the route we took was just the same old cycle of poop which put us on the brink. We never ever learn.. No Cunningham to blame so the knives come out for Duffy - Considering he got us to top 4 with a part time squad he can't be that bad, maybe a growing influence from outside started to derail the team he built?

But we were it has to be said over reliant on the quality of the St.Helens young DRs in the early to mid part of the season. Despite the raw passion of the local boys, Their quality was a big contributor that propelled us up the table. No question about that

What is unquestioned is that Saints started to recall those players constantly often as late as Saturday afternoon prior to a match day. The offer of DRs from Saints were being withdrawn and their availability reached zero and that presented us as a club with a huge dillema.

Do we enter the market for our own players or do we finish the season struggling to field a full contingent of 13 players and 4 subs for most of the remainder season, as it was a real probability ?

Now you can and I have myself question the quality of the players recruited but the decision was to sign players to remain ultra competitive to continue the promising start to the season the Saints youngsters contributed massively to. However real quality players are not readily available mid season for obvious reasons.

I am also aware that you have aired historical issues with Derek over a long period of time but as for 'outside influences'. I don't think so I really do not. My understanding is Derek was as bewildered at recent team selections as the rest of us, amidst rumours of petty fall outs between the coaching staff and one or two players that has been to the detriment of the team performance in recent weeks.

On top of that I honestly think John has also been out foxed tactically on the pitch in recent weeks and that is a very dangerous trait, long term.

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:02 pm  

Harold Rigby Jnr wrote:

But we were it has to be said over reliant on the quality of the St.Helens young DRs in the early to mid part of the season. Despite the raw passion of the local boys, Their quality was a big contributor that propelled us up the table. No question about that

What is unquestioned is that Saints started to recall those players constantly often as late as Saturday afternoon prior to a match day. The offer of DRs from Saints were being withdrawn and their availability reached zero and that presented us as a club with a huge dillema.

Do we enter the market for our own players or do we finish the season struggling to field a full contingent of 13 players and 4 subs for most of the remainder season, as it was a real probability ?

Now you can and I have myself question the quality of the players recruited but the decision was to sign players to remain ultra competitive to continue the promising start to the season the Saints youngsters contributed massively to. However real quality players are not readily available mid season for obvious reasons.

I am also aware that you have aired historical issues with Derek over a long period of time but as for 'outside influences'. I don't think so I really do not. My understanding is Derek was as bewildered at recent team selections as the rest of us, amidst rumours of petty fall outs between the coaching staff and one or two players that has been to the detriment of the team performance in recent weeks.

On top of that I honestly think John has also been out foxed tactically on the pitch in recent weeks and that is a very dangerous trait, long term.

I fully agree with all you say there Harold.

As for John being outfoxed, you could be right. Yet, have you noticed how many times lately, we have had a poor first 40 minutes, then remedied it in the first 10 minutes of the second half? (only to fall away again!) At half time I forecast we would get back to 12-14 (we actually only managed to get to 10) and then fall away again. One other factor I would mention, is that a few of our players who were outstanding for the first two thirds of the season, fell away at the back end. They looked jaded, which is probably to be expected. I won't mention names, because that's not fair, but you probably know who I mean?

Re: Was anyone really surprised by the performance against F : Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:20 pm  

Alan wrote:

I fully agree with all you say there Harold.

As for John being outfoxed, you could be right. Yet, have you noticed how many times lately, we have had a poor first 40 minutes, then remedied it in the first 10 minutes of the second half? (only to fall away again!) At half time I forecast we would get back to 12-14 (we actually only managed to get to 10) and then fall away again. One other factor I would mention, is that a few of our players who were outstanding for the first two thirds of the season, fell away at the back end. They looked jaded, which is probably to be expected. I won't mention names, because that's not fair, but you probably know who I mean?

jaded....we had two injured one of whom has hardly played in months was still plainly carrying the injury he went out of the team with in the first place that surely should have been sorted when we had the chance, one with so much strapping he could hardly run,both tried hard, one who has hardly played in 3 years not for injury but with an admitted lack of enthusiasm for the game. he managed to maintain that yesterday