: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:15 am  

kirkhall wrote:

Were English clubs suspended from European competion after that or, am I wrong?

Yes for 10 years , not just Liverpools fault but the final straw after years of trouble in Europe involving English clubs

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:23 am  

mutt1 wrote:

Just how did the police cause the crush? Would the police had to have opened exit gate C if Liverpool fans hadn't been getting crushed outside the ground? No

These two locked paddocks you mention. would these be the same paddocks that were acessable if you turned left or right as you entered through the turnstyle? one fan who is now a bbc reporter was told to do this by his mate who died in the central pen.

As you went through gate C you had the acess tunnel for the central pen right infront of you so all the fans headed straight for the tunnel in a rush to see the game. Now should there have been a gate that they could have closed to ristrict entry to the paddock once full? if they did they could have stopped the surge meaning fans could have spread out left and right into the other paddocks.

As i've said before the whole day could have been handled better by the police (acting quicker), fans(wouldn't have happed without them), stewards(should have directed fans to the other paddocks),FA (not taking the advice from Manchester United fans a few months before) , Sheffield Wednesday (not keeping the ground upto standard) etc etc but to just blame the police outright is just idiotic.

What really gets to me though is this whole justice campaign, there has already been two inquries into the disaster but the familys wern't happy with the verdict so want another but what happens if they don't like that verdict? My guess is they would push for a forth and fith etc etc untill they get the decission they want but then what? Would they want compenstion? Would there friends want compensation? Would they sleep better at night? Do they expect 96 people to suddenly rise from the dead?

If you want to ask an ex copper what it was like that day you should get in touch with Huddersfield as there saftey officer was on duty that day.

I dont normally get involved in conversations like this but Ive got to say I agree with everything you say

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:39 am  

The 'Many' police officers that retired after the incident (if two were many? 1 over 12 months later) both had over 30 years service so were at retirement stage anyway.
And I would read the Taylor report again for accuracy and not paraphrase the results.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:55 am  

Excellent post mutt1. I can understand the frustration and anger of the families of the 96, and the fact that they want someone to blame. However, in my opinion, there is no one person/organisation to blame - the tragedy occured as a result of a number of awful things happening at the same time, leading to a terrible outcome. However, going back to the original point of this thread, I think the link below illustrates perfectly why Liverpool 'fans' were wholly wrong to boo Burnham yesterday. http://msn.football365.com/story/0,1703 ... 87,00.html The service should've been a respectful memorial, not a chance to boo the one MP who simply didn't deserve it.

Excellent post mutt1. I can understand the frustration and anger of the families of the 96, and the fact that they want someone to blame. However, in my opinion, there is no one person/organisation to blame - the tragedy occured as a result of a number of awful things happening at the same time, leading to a terrible outcome. However, going back to the original point of this thread, I think the link below illustrates perfectly why Liverpool 'fans' were wholly wrong to boo Burnham yesterday. http://msn.football365.com/story/0,1703 ... 87,00.html The service should've been a respectful memorial, not a chance to boo the one MP who simply didn't deserve it.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:19 am  

There were many many factors to blame for what happened.
There isn't just one person, or bunch of people to blame. There are many.
But there are many facts to consider. The fact that that end of the ground didn't have a safety certificate is one of them.
The families want justice as the official enquiry wouldn't look at anything that happened after 3.19pm. This is clearly incorrect and wrong, it says there was no one alive after that time, when there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.
The families want closure, they want peace of mind, and for this they should be supported. I will say though, is that this isn't helped by barracking the man who is trying to get it reopened.
Oh and what happened in 1989 cannot and should never be compared to what happened in 1985. The only 2 similarities are the club involved and an unsuitable stadium. One was an act of hooliganism, one wasn't.
There is plenty of stuff out there to read about this, please take the time. It could have happened at many a football or rugby match, and indeed big concert, and could still happen again in some places.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:08 pm  

leigh_casual wrote:

There were many many factors to blame for what happened.
There isn't just one person, or bunch of people to blame. There are many.
But there are many facts to consider. The fact that that end of the ground didn't have a safety certificate is one of them.
The families want justice as the official enquiry wouldn't look at anything that happened after 3.19pm. This is clearly incorrect and wrong, it says there was no one alive after that time, when there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.
The families want closure, they want peace of mind, and for this they should be supported. I will say though, is that this isn't helped by barracking the man who is trying to get it reopened.
Oh and what happened in 1989 cannot and should never be compared to what happened in 1985. The only 2 similarities are the club involved and an unsuitable stadium. One was an act of hooliganism, one wasn't.
There is plenty of stuff out there to read about this, please take the time. It could have happened at many a football or rugby match, and indeed big concert, and could still happen again in some places.

When i mentioned Heysel my tongue was planted firmly in cheek and yes your right it was caused by hooliganism and a poor ground. I've read and watched a few documenterys about about the disaster and there are a few similaritys as the owners of Heysel stadium and Belgian police were never investigated and there was no official inquiry. Again it was a series of events all happening at the same time that caused 39 people to lose there lives, Juventus fans blamed Liverpool fans and a poor stadium and Liverpool fans blamed the police (i know i know but i couldn't resist one little dig) the truth will be somewhere in between.

As a regular at Old Trafford in the 80's and 90's you will rememeber the Arsenal game in 1990? I'd have been 9 and would normally stand in the scoreboard paddock but that day my dad took me into the Strettford end and was down towards the front and was involved in the crush after Winterburn fouled Choccy. There was a huge surge forward and i was taken clean off my feet i don't know who it was who picked me up of the floor but i'd sure like to shake his hand because that was a scary moment.

Another was in 99 i was watching Metallica at Milton Keynes bowl up at the font there was a lot of pushing and shoving the next thing i rememeber was being on the floor because the first 15/20 rows deep of people had slipped causeing everyone who was leaning on each other to fall too. The band had to stop playing untill everyone got back to there feet. The lad next to me snapped his leg and i escaped without harm. A year later at Roskilde in Denmark the same happend during Pearl Jams set and 9 people died from suffocation since then, you'll notice at most festivals and big gigs thesedays they have a semicircle barrier (golden circle) and a gate with ristrictions on how many people can get up close to the bands.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:15 pm  

Aye, the Heysel comparison has made many times on loads of other places and it irritates me no end. Wasn't aimed at anyone in particular on here.
I have been in the middle of that far too many times to even think about over the years, and like I say not just at football. Even coming out of the Manchester Academy after a gig last year was hairy and I had to get out of the crush as it was horrible.
At the end of the day 96 people (well 95 on the day and one later in hospital) went to a football game and never went home alive, and that should never have been allowed to happen.
That goes for various other events as well including Ibrox, Bradford, Middlesborough, Birmingham, Villa Park etc etc..

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 8:12 pm  

The only common denominator in all this debate is that all think it was a great tragedy, so why in other posts all the 'hot air' about stewarding and restrictions on movement etc etc.. when all the new regulations are to stop this happening again? or is it a case of NIMBY

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:27 pm  

Hillsborough wasn't just a disaster waiting to happen, it was a repeat of disasters past with no lessons learned. 33 died at Bolton in 1946 at an FA Cup game. Lots of those killed were from Leyth, Bent and Bongs. My grandad got his foot stepped on by a police horse. More details here, if anyone's interested... surprising how similar the scenes are to Hillsborough, aside from the dress codes of the time. http://www.merseysidepotters.com/Burnden.htm Andy Burnham is a genuine terraces football fan, and those booing show no respect either to the sincerity of the man, nor the solemnity of the occasion. I might lob an insult, or worse, at Maggie T if she walked past our street, but I'd never shout her down at a memorial service.

Hillsborough wasn't just a disaster waiting to happen, it was a repeat of disasters past with no lessons learned. 33 died at Bolton in 1946 at an FA Cup game. Lots of those killed were from Leyth, Bent and Bongs. My grandad got his foot stepped on by a police horse. More details here, if anyone's interested... surprising how similar the scenes are to Hillsborough, aside from the dress codes of the time. http://www.merseysidepotters.com/Burnden.htm Andy Burnham is a genuine terraces football fan, and those booing show no respect either to the sincerity of the man, nor the solemnity of the occasion. I might lob an insult, or worse, at Maggie T if she walked past our street, but I'd never shout her down at a memorial service.

: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:40 pm  

I have avoided this thread but will just post this , and this is not a dig at the Liverpool club or it's fans as it could have been any of the big clubs and their fans

As others have said there were many mistakes that day and the people asking for ' justice ' are not looking for justice , they are looking for blame

Well one thing that might finally end these calls for justice would be for one , just one Liverpool fan who was there that day without a ticket to stand up and admit that they along with several hundred if not thousand others were partly to blame for those tragic events

They are the ones whose concience is not clear , all the other parties involved have admitted that they were partly to blame

Just one