Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:07 pm  

Danson to own WAFC would be a result for both clubs, as long as the football club was run within its means. Latics (and football in general) have lived beyond their means for far too long, and any league club who cannot function with a 10,000 crowd needs to properly self-reflect on why this is the case, ask itself questions it really doesnt want to answer, such as "Why are we paying £15k a week for third rate footballers".

If the next ownership means they end up playing kids, getting beat and hovering around the bottom of L1 or L2, but still playing, then the Latics fans should see it as a result. Nobody in their right mind is going to bankroll this basket case of a club any more.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:47 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Probably

In truth I just mean the real morons on social media and any others that aren’t clever enough to be sensible. Plenty of Latics fans aren’t in that bracket and if they were promised local, stable ownership, I think they’d take it (or at least warm to it in time).

Perhaps they need to start saying it then instead of letting the baboons keep controlling their club's public image.

By the way, there is no possibility of IL or MD even touching Latics. You need to tell that to these mysteriously invisible Latics fans who might warm to Wigan in time.

They're now going to reap the good will they've sown. And that adds up to nothing.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:24 pm  

Like this fella? https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... kZR_Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... GY4FQ&s=19

Like this fella? https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... kZR_Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... GY4FQ&s=19

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:14 am  

MattyB wrote: Like this fella? https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... kZR_Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... GY4FQ&s=19 Yet another Saints fan who supports Latics. Makes it all a lot more understandable, and me even less sympathetic.

MattyB wrote: Like this fella? https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... kZR_Q&s=19 https://twitter.com/DannyAinscough7/sta ... GY4FQ&s=19 Yet another Saints fan who supports Latics. Makes it all a lot more understandable, and me even less sympathetic.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:37 am  

Jukesays wrote:

Under DW the losses of the stadium (and both the rugby and football) were hidden from the fan.
For various reasons it didn't matter to Dave Whelan in that he could use the clubs as his play thing, for tax purposes, advertisement for his own companies etc. So it kind of didn't matter that the stadium had no naming rights bringing in income (it's been open 24 years and no real Stadium naming sponsorship rights have come into it in all that time from a 3rd party).

The changes really.started with IL's purchase in 2008, and the peppercorn rent debate, the transfer of ownership from a 3rd party Co Whelco into Latics name etc. (Which was a poison chalice, even though imo it was morally questionable).

The stadium has running costs, and they are quite significant
And apart from the matchday corporate income its never really maximised its potential for various reasons inc the ones mentioned above.

There's a myriad of conversations here, but here's some pointers.

When Whelan sold to the Chinese consortium in approx 2017/18 the stadium was just under 20yrs old, it had no naming rights, had issues with bringing revenue in apart from matchday experience and larger than average outgoings due to pitch issues etc.
But also as it hadn't for the first 18/19yrs been ring fenced as its own business, separate to the clubs, which it then became in effect because previously losses/expenditure were covered by Whealn.
At this point it was discovered to ne losing around 1.5million per year as an independent business, along with it approaching a certain benchmark in the age of the stadium were checks on infrastructure were/are legally required. A large amount of money (well into the millions were/are needed to complete those checks and bring the stadium into the 2020's legally and from a future use/investment perspective).

The Chinese didn't do it, the Bahranis haven't done it, and in fact imo they've made another error in their deal with sodexo were they've sold the rights to the matchday income for a a lump sum of money. This was an early sign to me that the investments some thought were coming from the owners weren't going to happen (not sure on the deal but in exchange for Sodexo updating some stuff inside the stadium and a million pound (guesstimate but I've heard it's something like that) the money from the concourse etc doesn't now belong to WAFC).

So some 5 plus years on the stadium still needs 10/15million spending on it legally and to help it maximise income, its still losing over a million a year as an independent business and one of its largest income stream assets doesn't belong to them.

As an aside, if any of the numptys start talking about increasing rent to the 1million approx Hull FC and Huddersfield pay in comparison to our approx 650k bear this in mind
HullFC and Hudds use the stadium 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for all there other departments etc, whilst we're paying that for in effect maybe 1 day x 14/15 days a year.

There is no doubt the stadium isn't being used to its maximum capacity/efficiency/potential, but due to DW's way of running it and then subsequently the 2 latics owners since inability or unwillingness to invest in it were at a stage were a large Investments is needed to maximise its potential whilst at the same time its losing over a million a year.

I believe that IL has plan a/b/c with regards to the future, but obviously these are dependant on some factors out of our/his control.

However, as it stands IL has invested in Robin Park (and its incredulous/astonishing that some Latics Numptys perpetuate the myth that the council "give" the stadium to the rugby at the tax payers expense etc. Whilst choosing to ignore the full fetails of the deal so they can play the victim) and the benefits of living within our means and having to adapt to a financially sustainable plan/business back in 2008 has led us to a situation were we are relatively stable whilst people can draw their own conclusions about the sustainability of the football were outgoing on wages alone are 256% (something like that) more than total revenue.

The rugby have some challenges post covid, the repayment of the government loans etc post covid provide challenges, but the investment in Robin Park is bearing fruit in helping to achieve that along with Mike Dansons significinat i vestment and commitment behind the scenes. Relatively small losses for the rugby for the past 5 years or so are like to be repeated for the next 5 or so because of post covid commitments but there is a plan, there is sustainability and whilst not ideal that the 1 thing that 99% of what the regular fans see I.e. what pitch we play on, is not 100% in our control and does leave questions.
There's not a lot we can do about that, but I know who's shoes I'd rather be in, and IL's plans a/b/c etc are far more workable than the current football plans/experience.

Seems my post has now been used on a Latics Forum
Thanks to the guy who copied it, and I realise the good intentions of what you intended. I obviously left a lot of detail about stuff out of the above as it was already a boring enough post

However, because I didn't erect some kind of Shrine to DW in my post it appears I'm now an "Ungrateful Grade A F*****g A*****le" amongst other things
And even funnier, because he called me a respected "Board member" (I'll let you judge the respected bit!) they've now gone off on one and think I'm a director/Board member of the actual club!
I'm sure that'll get spun over the next few years, out on other social media platforms and become True and given as evidence that the rugby Hate Latics and this is all our fault.

Anyway
If the person who copied my post is reading this, let em know I'm nothing more than a supporter
I have personally no involvement in the club although I do know numerous people who do work there, did work there etc.
Also people involved previously with the stadium management etc.

I know it won't mean anything and it will go in 1 ear and out the other as it doesn't fit the Anti Rugby narrative myth a lot of them Try to perpetuate etc. To give their anti rugby stance meaning.

At no point did I slag Whelan off, it seems I'm not being grateful for him giving us a place to play instead of ending up in Horwich (Must have forgot about the 11m or so the club got for CP and ended uo in DWs hands).
I reiterate
The meaning of my post was only to explain that the changeover from being a Whelan play thing were balancing the books so to speak didn't matter, income from sponsorship didn't matter etc. To becoming a fully sustainable club were in the main the books have to be balanced was a real challenge.
This may seem like a dig, but Latics haven't got to that point yet and both owners have so far proved to not want to inject enough money to cover the losses they make each year on stadium and the team (losing 10million 2021/22 and possibly significantly more in 2022/23.
Up to Whelan selling the rugby we could afford to be a bit like that, and that's fine, until its not.
Whelan left the club 5 years after their relegation and the parachute payments stopped, Wise move? Would Latics trade those 20 years or so for stability now?
Each to their own

But it just was a comparison to show the pitfalls of being someone's play thing compared to being a sustainable business.

PS
Latest is the council should buy the stadium and give it to Latics, just like they "Gave" Robin Park and Taxpayers money to the rugby.
More revisionist made up clap trap.
The real truth doesn't fit the agenda again though

For those who do have a peek on said board, it is now debatable of they hate their own Supporters Club more than the Rugby now

Edit - when a few people have called for conciliation between the fans, a few of them have said they would but don't think we will as basically we hate them more than they hate us
Some (and I mean some who infect a few more) are really deluded.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:05 am  

Jukesays wrote:

Seems my post has now been used on a Latics Forum
Thanks to the guy who copied it, and I realise the good intentions of what you intended. I obviously left a lot of detail about stuff out of the above as it was already a boring enough post

However, because I didn't erect some kind of Shrine to DW in my post it appears I'm now an "Ungrateful Grade A F*****g A*****le" amongst other things
And even funnier, because he called me a respected "Board member" (I'll let you judge the respected bit!) they've now gone off on one and think I'm a director/Board member of the actual club!
I'm sure that'll get spun over the next few years, out on other social media platforms and become True and given as evidence that the rugby Hate Latics and this is all our fault.

Anyway
If the person who copied my post is reading this, let em know I'm nothing more than a supporter
I have personally no involvement in the club although I do know numerous people who do work there, did work there etc.
Also people involved previously with the stadium management etc.

I know it won't mean anything and it will go in 1 ear and out the other as it doesn't fit the Anti Rugby narrative myth a lot of them Try to perpetuate etc. To give their anti rugby stance meaning.

At no point did I slag Whelan off, it seems I'm not being grateful for him giving us a place to play instead of ending up in Horwich (Must have forgot about the 11m or so the club got for CP and went towards the new stadium?).
I reiterate
The meaning of my post was only to explain that the changeover from being a Whelan play thing were balancing the books so to speak didn't matter, income from sponsorship didn't matter etc. To becoming a fully sustainable club were in the main the books have to be balanced was a real challenge.
This may seem like a dig, but Latics haven't got to that point yet and both owners have so far proved to not want to inject enough money to cover the losses they make each year on stadium and the team (losing 10million 2021/22 and possibly significantly more in 2022/23.
Up to Whelan selling the rugby we could afford to be a bit like that, and that's fine, until its not.
Whelan left the club 5 years after their relegation and the parachute payments stopped, Wise move? Would Latics trade those 20 years or so for stability now?
Each to their own

But it just was a comparison to show the pitfalls of being someone's play thing compared to being a sustainable business.

PS
Latest is the council should buy the stadium and give it to Latics, just like they "Gave" Robin Park and Taxpayers money to the rugby.
More revisionist made up clap trap.
The real truth doesn't fit the agenda again though

For those who do have a peek on said board, it is now debatable of they hate their own Supporters Club more than the Rugby now

Edit - when a few people have called for conciliation between the fans, a few of them have said they would but don't think we will as basically we hate them more than they hate us
Some (and I mean some who infect a few more) are really deluded.

When you've lived a lie for as long as some Latic fans, there's nothing to be gained from suddenly seeking out the truth.

Your original post was helpful and informative for those who really want to understand what's happening down at the DW, but the rest will continue to deny reality until they find they've no football club to get deluded about.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:09 am  

If they'd put 10% of their Premier League income aside for a "rainy day" they wouldn't be where they are now, never having naming rights, minuscule kit deals and now giving away their concourse income. It's an object lesson in how not to run a sports club.
Fair play to them, they punched massively above their weight for a decade and the FA Cup will always be in their history book but it was never sustainable for a club the size of Wigan

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:50 am  

apollosghost wrote:

If they'd put 10% of their Premier League income aside for a "rainy day" they wouldn't be where they are now, never having naming rights, minuscule kit deals and now giving away their concourse income. It's an object lesson in how not to run a sports club.
Fair play to them, they punched massively above their weight for a decade and the FA Cup will always be in their history book but it was never sustainable for a club the size of Wigan

Nail on the head there. DW was never going to leave them in the lurch in the same way that IL wouldn't with us, but businessmen who only care about the £££ will just walk away and most clubs can't afford to survive. We would be no different if IL and MD walk away tomorrow.

The PL has caused a lot of what goes on with clubs in the championship and lower. The money for getting there is huge and foreign owners come in to "chase the dream" and don't care about the mess they leave behind if it doesn't happen for them and they walk away.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:49 pm  

Egg Chasing wrote:

Nail on the head there. DW was never going to leave them in the lurch

But he did - albeit as the unintended consequences of not fulfilling his words:

A year after stating that he would only sell the Latics to someone with their best interests at heart he flogged them to a bunch of gamblers that at best had no interest in their best interests and at worst were allegedly using the club to launder money or avoid tax in the far east. That was the point where it all turned sour - from having a frugal Yorkshireman holding the purse strings to a group that were very detached and left it to their appointees to sort stuff out.

Re: Latics in administration - Lenagan leading bid : Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:02 pm  

muttywhitedog wrote:

But he did - albeit as the unintended consequences of not fulfilling his words:

A year after stating that he would only sell the Latics to someone with their best interests at heart he flogged them to a bunch of gamblers that at best had no interest in their best interests and at worst were allegedly using the club to launder money or avoid tax in the far east. That was the point where it all turned sour - from having a frugal Yorkshireman holding the purse strings to a group that were very detached and left it to their appointees to sort stuff out.

He sold them, he didn't stop putting money and leave them in huge huge debt