Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 11:38 am  

Stu M wrote:

Without a doubt this is not me saying "Oh look what Saints are doing that no-one else is" I'm well aware that Wigan and to a lesser extent Leeds do the same.

What I am surprised at though is the decision taken by Saints. We have been knocked off our perch and instead of trying to sign players to get back to the top, we are gambling on youth. Very similar to Utd and the Class of 92 lot.

Now clearly there is a big difference between football and rugby particularly from a physical point of view and 18 year old lads will struggle against fully grown men who have had years of strength & conditioning. Noah Stephens for example has looked outstanding at Academy Level but will be a world of difference at SL level. He may well not even play a game next season. However conversely, he will come on as a player as a full time professional so his body will change and get fitter too.

It tells me that Saints have little SC space to play with due to upgraded deals and back-ended contracts for the likes of Lees and Knowles for example.

Personally I think we as Saints fans are in for a couple of relatively lean years as the old guard moves on but if 2 or 3 of the new lot can turn into a Welsby, Lees, Knowles, Dodd or a Lomax then we will be in a good position in time.

Vaughan is the one that is certainly IMO the most highly rated at the club.

Prop forwards like Stephens are always "interesting" They dominate at junior level but you can never be sure how they are going to develop. Are they good because they physically dominate at that level because of their size?
.
You look back at the likes of Sami Kibula and Levy Nzoungou who smashed everything and everybody in front of them at junior level but never progressed.

I like Robertson at Saints, not sure if he's a #1 or #6.

Good luck in finding a replacement for Lomax, he's a once in a generation player and so influential at Saints, very much like O'Loughlin was at Wigan.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:24 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote:

Prop forwards like Stephens are always "interesting" They dominate at junior level but you can never be sure how they are going to develop. Are they good because they physically dominate at that level because of their size?
.
You look back at the likes of Sami Kibula and Levy Nzoungou who smashed everything and everybody in front of them at junior level but never progressed.

I like Robertson at Saints, not sure if he's a #1 or #6.

Good luck in finding a replacement for Lomax, he's a once in a generation player and so influential at Saints, very much like O'Loughlin was at Wigan.

Loosing lockers set us back massively. Even now when we go down we don’t seem to have the same drive as what we did when lockers was the captain. Saints will do well to replace Roby, Lomax, Makinson and Walmsley when the time comes

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 1:46 pm  

WWste wrote:

Loosing lockers set us back massively. Even now when we go down we don’t seem to have the same drive as what we did when lockers was the captain. Saints will do well to replace Roby, Lomax, Makinson and Walmsley when the time comes

Roby now gone

Lomax is 34 next year
Walmsley is 34 next year
Makinson is 33 next year

If Dodd and Welsby go to the NRL that’s some rebuild needed.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:04 pm  

Stu M wrote:

Without a doubt this is not me saying "Oh look what Saints are doing that no-one else is" I'm well aware that Wigan and to a lesser extent Leeds do the same.

What I am surprised at though is the decision taken by Saints. We have been knocked off our perch and instead of trying to sign players to get back to the top, we are gambling on youth. Very similar to Utd and the Class of 92 lot.

Now clearly there is a big difference between football and rugby particularly from a physical point of view and 18 year old lads will struggle against fully grown men who have had years of strength & conditioning. Noah Stephens for example has looked outstanding at Academy Level but will be a world of difference at SL level. He may well not even play a game next season. However conversely, he will come on as a player as a full time professional so his body will change and get fitter too.

It tells me that Saints have little SC space to play with due to upgraded deals [size=150]and back-ended contracts[/size] for the likes of Lees and Knowles for example.

Personally I think we as Saints fans are in for a couple of relatively lean years as the old guard moves on but if 2 or 3 of the new lot can turn into a Welsby, Lees, Knowles, Dodd or a Lomax then we will be in a good position in time.

Vaughan is the one that is certainly IMO the most highly rated at the club.

Didn't Wigan get accused of going against the spirit of the cap for doing that?

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:31 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

I wish other clubs would follow suit with Wigan and Saints anyway. Imagine how strong the league would be if everyone put as much effort in as Wigan, Saints and Leeds. It’s a mystery why they’ve won every first team Grand Final between them in the last 18 years (and plenty before).

Agree 100%

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 2:58 pm  

proper-shaped-balls wrote:

Didn't Wigan get accused of going against the spirit of the cap for doing that?

We did but I think it was the fact that we did it mid season to panic buy Fielden and Dobson that was seen as being against the spirit.

Contracts that increase year on year are common in sport

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:02 pm  

--[ WW ]-- wrote:

We did but I think it was the fact that we did it mid season to panic buy Fielden and Dobson that was seen as being against the spirit.

Contracts that increase year on year are common in sport

From what I remember it was the staggered payment of the Fielden contract that was deemed against the spirit, not the timing of the signing. Against the spirit or not I actually thought it was genius from Maurice.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:35 pm  

MadDogg wrote:

From what I remember it was the staggered payment of the Fielden contract that was deemed against the spirit, not the timing of the signing. Against the spirit or not I actually thought it was genius from Maurice.

I'm pretty sure that was it too. Whilst contracts can improve, you can't pay someone £250 in year one and then £400k in year 2. I know that's an extreme example, but you get my drift.

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:38 pm  

MadDogg wrote:

From what I remember it was the staggered payment of the Fielden contract that was deemed against the spirit, not the timing of the signing. Against the spirit or not I actually thought it was genius from Maurice.

It was and it didnt break any rules so they made one up...

Re: Wigan v Sts discussion - THIS THREAD ONLY PLEASE : Fri Nov 03, 2023 3:48 pm  

Did we not adjust some of the contracts of existing players to make room for the Fielden and Dobson? That was my understanding but I'm trying to pick a nearly 20yr old memory from a time when I really enjoyed myself at games so any conversations I had might have been misunderstood on my part