Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:23 am  

RogerMoore wrote:

Thought Moore had a poor game. Tonga first try was obstruction on Smith, even though the commentary team keep rambling on about King coming in. Tongan player running in and pushing Welsby on the head has been a yellow or red all season.
Thought Smith, McMeeken, Radley, Johnson and Knowles went well. Lewis was decent in attack but needs to improve his defence and stop ripping the ball out.

Moore was awful as usual. For both sides. He gave a forward pass against Havili that was never forward as Tonga were getting on top. Straight after he missed Whitehead knocking on from a kick and give a drop out which we scored off the set. Just for balance. He wasnt biased to either side hes just a poor ref

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:15 am  

Harry Smith was definitely MOM. The most important cog in the machine, much as he is with Wigan. Was always going to Lewis for his eye catching contributions but he needs to cut down on the defensive lapses at this level, in particular the needless ball stripping penalties. Great debut from him though and he's already thinking about how he can improve as shown from his aftermatch interview. Smith/Lewis could be a very effective combination going forward.

I agree with the forwards comments earlier. I said prior to the game that it's my main issue with Waney. Too eager to accommodate forwards in his own image i.e. small grafters with aggression. Burgess and McMeeken went well along with Hill, but at least 2 of those are nearing the end of their careers. Lees has always been too small at 15 stone 10 for international level and was largely ineffective. Same for Bateman, on this showing at least. Whitehead too old going forward. We need to find the next generation of big forwards if we're not to be left behind.

I enjoyed the game and looking forward to to the rest of the series.

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:23 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Harry Smith was definitely MOM. The most important cog in the machine, much as he is with Wigan. Was always going to Lewis for his eye catching contributions but he needs to cut down on the defensive lapses at this level, in particular the needless ball stripping penalties. Great debut from him though and he's already thinking about how he can improve as shown from his aftermatch interview. Smith/Lewis could be a very effective combination going forward.

I agree with the forwards comments earlier. I said prior to the game that it's my main issue with Waney. Too eager to accommodate forwards in his own image i.e. small grafters with aggression. Burgess and McMeeken went well along with Hill, but at least 2 of those are nearing the end of their careers. Lees has always been too small at 15 stone 10 for international level and was largely ineffective. Same for Bateman, on this showing at least. Whitehead too old going forward. We need to find the next generation of big forwards if we're not to be left behind.

I enjoyed the game and looking forward to to the rest of the series.

I kept wondering if Lees was concussed because of the amount of time he spent not just lying on players but just lying around the ruck on the floor before finally making his way back in to the defensive line. It’s a mystery to me how Mulhern didn’t get selected ahead of a couple of the props. He’s been the best British prop in Superleague by a fair way.

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:45 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

I kept wondering if Lees was concussed because of the amount of time he spent not just lying on players but just lying around the ruck on the floor before finally making his way back in to the defensive line. It’s a mystery to me how Mulhern didn’t get selected ahead of a couple of the props. He’s been the best British prop in Superleague by a fair way.

We have bigger guys coming through who weren't available for these tests, of course, but we should really be blooding Dupree and Mulhern in my opinion. I doubt Waney will see beyond the tried and tested though. He's a 'stick rather than twist' coach when it comes to forwards.

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:54 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

We have bigger guys coming through who weren't available for these tests, of course, but we should really be blooding Dupree and Mulhern in my opinion. I doubt Waney will see beyond the tried and tested though. He's a 'stick rather than twist' coach when it comes to forwards.

There is plenty to be said for loyalty but at the start of a cycle now which builds towards a World Cup, I’m not sure there is a great deal of use in playing Hill or Whitehead for starters. Whitehead is retiring from the game altogether in 12 months, so personally Farrell would’ve been selected and then Whitehead possibly given a game if the series was in the bag come game 3. We do need to win games though, so I can understand why he’s gone the way he has but the balance feels a little off to me and I’d have started the series with guys who will be around in 2 or 3 years time.

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:23 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

There is plenty to be said for loyalty but at the start of a cycle now which builds towards a World Cup, I’m not sure there is a great deal of use in playing Hill or Whitehead for starters. Whitehead is retiring from the game altogether in 12 months, so personally Farrell would’ve been selected and then Whitehead possibly given a game if the series was in the bag come game 3. We do need to win games though, so I can understand why he’s gone the way he has but the balance feels a little off to me and I’d have started the series with guys who will be around in 2 or 3 years time.

Same NK. I just don't see the value in persisting with guys who will be retiring soon, past their best or not suited to the international stage. Faz would probably come into the same bracket for me although it's hard to deny him a long overdue opportunity. If we're being ruthless in growing towards a world cup then he isn't the answer. Lees should be nowhere near the team either. Makes no yards at Superleague level, nevermind against much bigger international squads. Has no discernible skillset beyond being able to tackle but so can everyone else at this level and, as you say, even that seemed to be a bit of a struggle yesterday.

We have a few bigger guys to come back and several that could filter through over the next few years but we really need to start thinking in terms of what we need going forward. If Whitehead, Hill, Lees, Faz, Bateman (if it's decline rather than form) etc are not the guys to take us into the next world cup, we should be looking at players who might be.

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:30 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

Same NK. I just don't see the value in persisting with guys who will be retiring soon, past their best or not suited to the international stage. Faz would probably come into the same bracket for me although it's hard to deny him a long overdue opportunity. If we're being ruthless in growing towards a world cup then he isn't the answer. Lees should be nowhere near the team either. Makes no yards at Superleague level, nevermind against much bigger international squads. Has no discernible skillset beyond being able to tackle but so can everyone else at this level and, as you say, even that seemed to be a bit of a struggle yesterday.

We have Havard a few bigger guys to come back and several that could filter through over the next few years but we really need to start thinking in terms of what we need going forward. If Whitehead, Hill, Lees, Faz, Bateman (if it's decline rather than form) etc are not the guys to take us into the next world cup, we should be looking at players who might be.

Faz I do feel could make that next World Cup. They’d need to gain his thoughts I guess but he’s 33 and will be 36 when that is played. You would possibly rule out many forwards at that age but he’s a physical freak and I could see him still playing to a really high level at that point. He’s been criminally underused in international rugby league and I was surprised that continued yesterday. He is a better player than Whitehead or Bateman IMO and just because he didn’t make a move to the NRL wouldn’t change my opinion. It was the same with Roby but you could half understand his and Farrell’s treatment with Wayne Bennett in charge.

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:07 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

Faz I do feel could make that next World Cup. They’d need to gain his thoughts I guess but he’s 33 and will be 36 when that is played. You would possibly rule out many forwards at that age but he’s a physical freak and I could see him still playing to a really high level at that point. He’s been criminally underused in international rugby league and I was surprised that continued yesterday. He is a better player than Whitehead or Bateman IMO and just because he didn’t make a move to the NRL wouldn’t change my opinion. It was the same with Roby but you could half understand his and Farrell’s treatment with Wayne Bennett in charge.

I agree. He offers more than our current backrowers in my opinion. Similar defensively but more in attack. It's just that if there's any question marks about his availability going forward then we need to be looking elsewhere. I wouldn't deny him his opportunity this time around though. As you say, he hasn't been involved as much as he perhaps should have been. Funnily enough, it's his size that has been the issue and that probably wouldn't have been the case to the same extent under Wane.

On the topic of larger forwards we have several who could be there or thereabouts come the World cup. Havard, Delaney, Byrne, KPP, Oledzki (needs to regain form) among others. Wild card shouts for Nsemba and Walters too. Not a comprehensive list by any means but some genuine size amongst that lot which needs to be integrated sooner rather than later.

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:44 pm  

Byrne's Irish, isn't he?

Re: Jack Welsby to become England’s youngest-ever captain : Mon Oct 23, 2023 4:46 pm  

moto748 wrote:

Byrne's Irish, isn't he?

I thought he opted to play for Ireland but was also eligible for England?