: Thu May 28, 2009 2:55 pm  

[Gareth] wrote:

long will not be signed by wigan

reason? fan power

Which is a stupid reason. You have to be totally cold hearted in making decision pertaining to playing staff. You get the best man for the job. This should be defined by numerous factors. One factor that must be excluded is whether that player has been playing for your rivals.

: Thu May 28, 2009 2:59 pm  

Boris wrote:

Which is a stupid reason. You have to be totally cold hearted in making decision pertaining to playing staff. You get the best man for the job. This should be defined by numerous factors. One factor that must be excluded is whether that player has been playing for your rivals.

but long isnt the best man for the job? Compared to orford surely it would be worth the bit of extra money to sign someone that the fans would be happy with, as well as not risking the disruption that long could bring to the team?

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:00 pm  

Boris wrote:

Which is a stupid reason. You have to be totally cold hearted in making decision pertaining to playing staff. You get the best man for the job. This should be defined by numerous factors. One factor that must be excluded is whether that player has been playing for your rivals.

it may be stupid on the part of the fans not wanting to accept sean long as a wigan player and i agree a cold hearted approach is needed but IL and BN cannot risk allienating a large number of fans and possibly losing a chunk if revenue (of course, i cant speak on behalf of everyone) by signing sean long

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:00 pm  

Last Son of Wigan wrote:

:CLAP: Finally you have stopped moaning and continued the debate top notch.

Not sure of the first point you make in bold. Are you claiming Long has never said he wants to finish his career at Saints?

Tim Smith won a rookie of the year award and was not signed directly from the NRL he was signed from obscurity without playing a game or training in a pro environment, as he has found his feet in the pro ranks he has shown some good form. Orford has not had the same background as Smith he would be moving from pro to pro environment without all the added bagage so i think its a poor comparisson.

Both are over 30 but Orford is still younger he has just short of 2 years on Long which in real terms at there age is a significant difference, maybe not 5 years ago but certainly at this stage of there career. Given Orford had the best season of his life last year it shows the ability is still there, i do not think you can say the same about Long. If we offered Orford a 2 year deal he would only just be older than Long is now when it finishes.

Until this post you clearly have ducked the debate.

Both players are a short term 2 year fix clearly Myler is a long term option but you cannot blood them together without having a senior partner to step in when required hence why we are having this debate on the merrits of Long/Orford.

The other word of warning that would put me right off Long is this, remember the effect Millward a man dripping in honours won at Saints faired at Wigan, he failed. He failed because of the history between the 2 clubs and the part he played in it. He never ever had the dressing room, something we could not risk our 7 and leader around the pitch not to have. Attempting to have a character like Long who has for so long been an integral part of Saints and a pain in the players side in my opinion as happened with Millward, i do not think he could ever win the dressing room.

Once again you claim i have hardly ever seen him which is plain wrong.

You've just focused on Tim Smith over in the SL when I listed several Aus halfbacks. I listed more than 1 HB to prove the point.

You speak of Not blooding them together I think you're referring to Tomkins and Myler, thats why I feel and agree a senior player is needed in the mix, I counted this by many times over outlining what I would do with Sam if we signed Long/Orford and Myler.

The two year age difference between Orford and Long is irrelevant, there are many players out there who are old but yet fitter than younger players, i.e a 35yr old Menzies is still top notch.

Don't forget Millward was the coach, not a player. The coach has the final say not the number 7. Plus Long is a Wigan lad not an Aussie like Millward. It would be closer to compare Long to Gleeson, both well liked saints players who are from Wigan. Gleeson has been accepted by all at Wigan.
Also don't forget Long is quiet friendly with many Wigan lads, which would make his integration into the team smoother than Orford.
So I'm not entirely sure how your speculation that Long would causes issues as a former saints player is valid.

Oh and thank you for holding back on the insults.[/quote]

I apologise for focusing on Smith i missed off the others by accident. Monaghan was superb in his first year lost his way under Lowes somewhat but is finding his form under a good coach again. Sherwin has been a great signing for Cas despite a slow start he has guided them round the field superbly, very good player. Matt Johns was a 6.

I appreciate you have said what would do with Tomkins but in real terms it is not realistic if we sign another half. We simply cannot wish players like Roberts away, Phelps we can but not Roberts. The debate is not what we do with Tomkins it is about who we bring into the team as a half not what we do with Tomkins.

I am stunned you can claim a 2 year age gap is irrellivant especially given Longs increasing history of injury, Players like Menzies are the exception not the rule, he has been a superb pro and that is why his body is holding up, the same cannot be said for Long, and the results af this are there to see.

Long may not be the coach but he is or whoever we bring into the team as the half will be expected to be the onfield coach, Long is not well liked with the Wigan lads, he has some friends of the older guard but in the main he is not well liked. It is crucial for a pivot and leader to have the respect of all his players, Long in my opinion will not have time to earn this like he did coming through and developing as he did as a young lad signed from Widnes.

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:01 pm  

Boris wrote:

He will be cheaper than Orford. That was my point.



I would only sign him on a 1 plus 1 basis. If that can not be done, then Wigan should look elsewhere.


I am not sure he is deemed not good enough, rather not worth the risk of two extra years. Secondly, each team has more pressing demands for certain areas. Wigan need a 7 if Tim Smith is going to leave. Hence, Long should be seriously loked at.

Well there in ends the debate then. Long is after a 2 year deal.

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:31 pm  

Mark1987 wrote:

As IL actually stated we are signing a half-back? or have the newspapers took it that way?

Do we need one? If Riddell started to perform.

What's up with Tomkins, Tommy, Macca and Riddell?

Spend the money else were on an important position called Full-back!

Sick of stating how important the fullback is. What do all the top 5 currently have? Good fullbacks.

St Helens - Wellens
Hull KR - Briscoe
Leeds - Webb/Smith
Hudd - B. Hodgson
Quins - Melling

The rest all have average/cr@p FB's in my eyes. Bar Catalan, Greenshields is an awesome player, just a shame Catalan give penalties away for fun.

Keep our current 6,7 and 9's, sign a W/C FB, you don't need good wingers, if you have a great Centre the winger will score no matter what.

Senior to Calderwood
Lyon to Gardner
Gidley to Gardner

Them Wingers aren't W/C to me, the centre makes them look like it! Top wingers are Donald and Ainscough, make tries from nothing alot of the time.

I think we could have a field day on the left. Hock, Carmont, Tomkins and a W/C fullback all attacking the line, with Richards backing them up.
Slowly move it over to the right wing, but we need an attacking second rower there. J.Tomkins/Hansen/bailey just haven't enough in attack for me. Once we do I think the likes of Gleeson and Roberts will start playing their parts. O'Loughlin in the second row on the right, bring so much more attack and go forward, but it's just not going to happen under the current coach.

Bailey
Coley
Phelps
T.Smith
K. Pryce - all to go

Replaced with:

W/C Fullback
Enforcer Prop
Loose Forward - with Locker's moving to second row under new management.

The whole post falls down on Melling being mentioned as a class fullback.

He's not as good as what we currently have.

Fullback isn't an issue for me at the moment. We could do better but a halfback and 2 props needs sorting out first over the next 18 months before we even start worrying about a fullback.

Outisde of Webb and Hodgson i don't think theres a really top draw fullback in the whole league.

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:33 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

The whole post falls down on Melling being mentioned as a class fullback.

He's not as good as what we currently have.

Fullback isn't an issue for me at the moment. We could do better but a halfback and 2 props needs sorting out first over the next 18 months before we even start worrying about a fullback.

Outisde of Webb and Hodgson i don't think theres a really top draw fullback in the whole league.

Wellens

although hes appeared woefully inadequate at international level recently

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:50 pm  

Greenshields is better than Wellens.

: Thu May 28, 2009 3:54 pm  

RB wrote:

Greenshields is better than Wellens.

forgot about him!

: Thu May 28, 2009 4:05 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

The whole post falls down on Melling being mentioned as a class fullback.

He's not as good as what we currently have.

Fullback isn't an issue for me at the moment. We could do better but a halfback and 2 props needs sorting out first over the next 18 months before we even start worrying about a fullback.

Outisde of Webb and Hodgson i don't think theres a really top draw fullback in the whole league.

Ok the list i mentioned are W/C, Great and Good Fullbacks, better then our attempt at playing players who aren't made for that position.

All I'm saying is the top 5 have, players who are made to play that position, teams like us, Hull FC, Wakefield, Bradford are all playing players who they thing are good at it, but are actually quite poor. TBH

Why sort them first, our defence is good/superb on the night, we'll poor in attack. It's speaks for it's self, how often are Wellens,Greenshields,Webb involved in nearly every single try? Ok Briscoe and Melling aren't as good in attack, but the two of them sure know what they are doing in defence.

Them five players it's very rare the ball goes to ground on the kick down field, with us it's very rare it's taken on the full, it's an extra 10-15metres each kick, makes a hell of a difference over a game.

Sign a young, talented FB now, whilst the team bonds. new right wing partnership, new young half-back, new young left winger, right time to bond the whole back line, rather then introducing someone again further down the line. Create a back-line which won't be boken up for a few seasons, only Carmont to be replaced if we did.