Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:25 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Sometimes halfbacks come along who can do it all and while it may not transfer in to the first team, I see Farrimond as one of those at academy level. Yes, he is an organiser but he's got a good running game and can play off the cuff as well. The step up may be too big, who knows but theres potential there for him to play alongside any type of halfback partner for me.

It won't be an issue for us for a year or two anyway. Talking of that, something will need to give at Wigan if he is to get a regular spot down the track.

Williams can do both roles but he’s more effective doing one or the other I think his talent is diluted doing both roles as he is being asked to do at times.

I don’t disagree re Farrimond he can run however his natural strength is that of an organiser.

In regards something giving I think that will be Smith inside 3 seasons.

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:28 am  

jonh wrote:

I agree re Dodd and Lomax which also coincided with Saints decline as both have become halves as Lomax has aged and he has adapted his game and they have lost strike in the front line.

Drinkwater wouldn’t be getting a game were it not for Leon Hayes injury again a player who is an out and out half.

Edwards again adapted as he aged and took on the organiser role after Gregory much like many have done over the years as they lose that yard of pace like Danny McGuire did at Leeds and Shaun Johnson has more recently with New Zealand Warriors to great effect.

Again I disagree Jon. You're cherry picking parts of their career to "prove" a point. Burrow and Maguire Co existed successfully for years before Maguire adapted his game. They were both runners. Edwards was always a good organizing half and played that role often well before any decline in pace.

Shall I take it you now concede that your assertion regarding Dodd/Lomax and Drinkwater/Williams being examples of organization half/ running half combinations was a poor one?

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:31 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Exactly this NK. He plays the organisation role very well but it shouldn't detract from other parts of his game. He can be a dangerous runner too.

Although I get what Jon and Stu are alluding to, I just don't get this "one size fits all" viewpoint. You're either and organizing half or a runner. It's almost as if you can't have more than one string to your bow! That's just not true. It depends to a large extent (as Jon points out to be fair) to the personnel around you. Edwards was as successful as an organizing half as he was a running 6. Burrow and Maguire were both runners but had Sinfield as the organiser. For s long time most teams played split halves. There are so many different variations on what a successful half back pairing looks like that I think to write off a pairing without even seeing them is just plain wrong.

Edwards was paired with running halves when he transitioned to an organiser.

I do think it’s possible to do both but very few can effectively.

I’m sure Farrimond and Smith could pair up in SL but as you say we would need to change a lot of other elements of our play.

Split halves at the moment is certainly not the trend with the most successful teams.

I think you play players to their strengths hence Williams isn’t as effective at Wire as he is being asked to do both roles.

If you ask Lewis to do both he becomes less effective.

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:33 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

Exactly this NK. He plays the organisation role very well but it shouldn't detract from other parts of his game. He can be a dangerous runner too.

Although I get what Jon and Stu are alluding to, I just don't get this "one size fits all" viewpoint. You're either and organizing half or a runner. It's almost as if you can't have more than one string to your bow! That's just not true. It depends to a large extent (as Jon points out to be fair) to the personnel around you. Edwards was as successful as an organizing half as he was a running 6. Burrow and Maguire were both runners but had Sinfield as the organiser. For s long time most teams played split halves. There are so many different variations on what a successful half back pairing looks like that I think to write off a pairing without even seeing them is just plain wrong.

Halves do tend to settle in to a first team role as one or the other but not always because their skillset is limited to just being an organiser or just being a runner, it's just that is what is asked of them by the coach. In the case of Harry Smith and this isn't being disrespectful because he's a fantastic scrum half but he couldn't be anything but an organiser because he's just not got that running threat. The same went with Kevin Sinfield as you point out. I would point to Sean Long as a halfback that could do a bit of everything and you could ask him to be a 6 or a 7, to just be an organiser or just be a runner or to do both. I look at Farrimond and see a bit of everything in there but it's very early days. I'm by no means saying he is in the class of Long or will ever reach those heights but I don't see a kid that just has to be an organiser, who will kick us around the field and rarely test the line himself.

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:39 am  

jonh wrote:

Williams can do both roles but he’s more effective doing one or the other I think his talent is diluted doing both roles as he is being asked to do at times.

I don’t disagree re Farrimond he can run however his natural strength is that of an organiser.

In regards something giving I think that will be Smith inside 3 seasons.

Williams came through as a running half, who even played a bit of hooker in the early first team days. I've never felt he's a good organiser and still don't and he's at his best when he's freed up and allowed to play. I always felt him and Harry Smith would've been a fantastic halfback pairing because they really compliment each other.

I agree on Farrimond, I do think his main strength is running a team/game but I do think he's a bit more of an allrounder at this age then either Williams or Smith were. I think their strengths and weakness were really obvious, whereas this kid does a bit of everything. That's not to say I think he's a better player than either of those were at 18/19, it might be that he ends up being pretty good at everything, whereas Smith and Williams have parts of their games that are elite. It's early days.

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:42 am  

Will be really interesting to see what Penrith do next year.

They have Cleary for is the number one half in the game but are losing Luai who has been a great 5/8th partner to him.

They have Schneider as backup who I think is very good but his main strength again is as an organising half rather than a 5/8th.

Be interesting to see if they pair them or recruit a natural 5/8th.

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:42 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Halves do tend to settle in to a first team role as one or the other but not always because their skillset is limited to just being an organiser or just being a runner, it's just that is what is asked of them by the coach. In the case of Harry Smith and this isn't being disrespectful because he's a fantastic scrum half but he couldn't be anything but an organiser because he's just not got that running threat. The same went with Kevin Sinfield as you point out. I would point to Sean Long as a halfback that could do a bit of everything and you could ask him to be a 6 or a 7, to just be an organiser or just be a runner or to do both. I look at Farrimond and see a bit of everything in there but it's very early days. I'm by no means saying he is in the class of Long or will ever reach those heights but I don't see a kid that just has to be an organiser, who will kick us around the field and rarely test the line himself.

Long and Martyn would be a great example of the "overlapping skillsets" that I'm referring to. Sure, each had they're strengths but both could kick, both offered a running threat etc. You can have predefined roles within a team without being limited by it.

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:45 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Williams came through as a running half, who even played a bit of hooker in the early first team days. I've never felt he's a good organiser and still don't and he's at his best when he's freed up and allowed to play. I always felt him and Harry Smith would've been a fantastic halfback pairing because they really compliment each other.

I agree on Farrimond, I do think his main strength is running a team/game but I do think he's a bit more of an allrounder at this age than either Williams or Smith were. I think their strengths and weakness were really obvious, whereas this kid does a bit of everything. That's not to say I think he's a better player than either of those were at 18/19, it might be that he ends up being pretty good at everything, whereas Smith and Williams have parts of their games that are elite. It's early days.

Agree re Williams and think that is why Burgess went with Hayes over Drinkwater.

Once Hayes finds his feet he’s a natural half freeing up Williams to do what he is best at, run.

At the moment Williams is doing both roles and his impact is being reduced much in the same way as if we asked French would become less effective if we asked him to run our team.

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:49 am  

jonh wrote:

Edwards was paired with running halves when he transitioned to an organiser.

I do think it’s possible to do both but very few can effectively.

I’m sure Farrimond and Smith could pair up in SL but as you say we would need to change a lot of other elements of our play.

Split halves at the moment is certainly not the trend with the most successful teams.

I think you play players to their strengths hence Williams isn’t as effective at Wire as he is being asked to do both roles.

If you ask Lewis to do both he becomes less effective.

To be honest, I don't think we're far off being in agreement, certainly regarding Farrimond's main strengths. I just don't think you can instantly write off a pairing based on what their main strengths are.

I do have to take issue regarding Edwards though. He was always a capable organizing half throughout the entirety of his career, not just at the end of it. He played scrum half many, many times for the great Wigan sides very successfully. Didn't he also Play for England, and England schoolboys before that, as a 7?

Re: FIELD : Thu Jun 20, 2024 10:54 am  

It’s slightly different but kind of emphasises the point.

I watch Trinity a lot and they run with Gale and Lino at 6 & 7. Both are half backs rather than 5/8ths.

Trinity are so dominant in the Championship particularly their pack and they normally play on the front foot but because they have 2 halves they are not hammering teams in the way they should be because both halves tend to do the same thing and get in each others way they don’t compliment each other because they are both natural organisers.

Wigan at the moment are Smiths team. He is the man, he may not get the plaudits of French but he’s the heartbeat of this team.

Luai is leaving Penrith because he now wants to run a team which he will never get the chance to do at Penrith….all be it the money is a big draw too in his case.