: Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:08 pm  

our back row is simply levels behind a superleague winning team standard. Andy coley offers nothing to the team, and the word "nothing" is no over-exaggeration. He runs with no pace or intensity, forwards are designed to intimadate defences, andy coley just fails in that department.
Gareth Hock has potential to be a brilliant player, despite his poor showings recently i still believe he is a brilliant player, for me, he his such a better 2nd rower to have in ur pack than phil bailey. Bailey appeals to me as a player who has no obvious skill in any position, to slow to be a centre, to small and fragile to be a forward. I couldnt agree more than harrison hansen (our top tackler of last season) should start. Noble is a man for stats and he should be the first to start hansen.

: Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:37 pm  

Alex BP' wrote:

Bingo.

Hansen - Defence
O'Loughlin - Attack/Defence
Tomkins - Attack

Hock - Impact

Although he needs to improve generally, Andy Coley can switch between both positions and gives us versatility and options.

Coley needs to improve more than generally - he needs to improve beyond all recognition!

I'm not convinced that having that backrow would have made a great deal of difference against Wakefield - or in the future if we play with the same attitude or skill level.

: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:33 pm  

Tomkins and Hansen with O'Loughlin at loose. Hock on the bench and Bailey at home.

: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:49 pm  

No1_Saints _Fan wrote:

Tomkins and Hansen with O'Loughlin at loose. Hock on the bench and Bailey at home.

Would that be in the next seat to Flannery?

Re: The Back Row : Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:00 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

Excellent contribution to the debate there well done.... So come on then you've gotta give reasons why you disagree haven't you? Or are we all mind readers?

Can't believe i'm gonna justify it as it's a perfectly good statement but here goes anyway;

Carmont was the leagues best centre last season. There is probably one centre that’s better than him in SL and thats Gidley. Hardly a bad situation to be in imo.

Goulding is better than Phelps imo and I’ve not seen anything from the other centres that i mentioned over the course of last season to suggest he’s not as good as them.

As a centre pairing Carmont and Goulding is a good one and we could do far worse.

Also can you tell me a team that has four better props than Fielden? He's not the best prop in the league but he's still better than 90% of the others. He's good enough to get in any SL team and if you can't see that then i don't know what you were watching last season? Put it this way I’d take him over Leuleui and Bailey at Leeds and they are the champs. If he would be good enough to get in the best team in SL then he’s hardly a bad player.

Okay, you want reasons to back up my opinion, well here we go.

1.) Carmont was not the league's best centre Gidley was far better, he made so many tries for Gardner it was unreal. Both Goulding and Carmont are not the strongest defensively and this has been commented to me by Wiganers in the past never mind any other fans. I would also say Goulding was behind Atkins at Wakefield and IMO Shenton at Cas has looked more promising.

I would say that Gleeson and King is a better Centre Pairing than Carmont and Goulding, although admittedly, King never hit anything Like top form last year, However both at top form are much better than Goulding.

Fielden is shot, that's been acknowledged by many Wigan fans once again. Last season for the majority an awful lot of Wigan fans were saying they should get rid, for you to say that he would get into most teams is mad.
I definitely wouldn't have him in our team infront of Cayless, Graham or Puletua or Leeds infront of Peacock and Lueluai, I'll give you Bailey as Ive never rated him. Warrington are also better off in that area with Morley and Carvell, and even Bradford could claim to compete with Lynch and Burgess!

Re: The Back Row : Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:49 pm  

JLM23 wrote:

1.) Carmont was not the league's best centre Gidley was far better, he made so many tries for Gardner it was unreal. Both Goulding and Carmont are not the strongest defensively and this has been commented to me by Wiganers in the past never mind any other fans. I would also say Goulding was behind Atkins at Wakefield and IMO Shenton at Cas has looked more promising.

Carmont was voted the best centre in the league last year hence his place in the dream team. I acknowledged in my last post Gidley is a better player but that doesn't mean Carmont isn't a good one either. My original post tho was all about how if you look through the Wigan team it's IMO a lot better than it's performing. Carmont is one of the best centres in the league but is the current coaching team making the most from his talents as say Saints are doing with Gidley? I don’t think they are……

Goulding is better than Atkins for me but it's all personal opinion at the end of day. He's defiantly better than the other centre's i mentioned and we could do far worse to partner Carmont. It’s not that bad of pairing really.

I would say that Gleeson and King is a better Centre Pairing than Carmont and Goulding, although admittedly, King never hit anything Like top form last year, However both at top form are much better than Goulding.

Again your right but how often do they hit form? One has a good game and then the other one has a good game rarely do they both perform consistently together. If Senior and Toopi/Albet(sp) can win the league then a pairing of Goulding and Carmont defiantly can. You can’t deny they if both were on the top of their game it would pose a threat to most teams.

Fielden is shot, that's been acknowledged by many Wigan fans once again. Last season for the majority an awful lot of Wigan fans were saying they should get rid, for you to say that he would get into most teams is mad.
I definitely wouldn't have him in our team infront of Cayless, Graham or Puletua or Leeds infront of Peacock and Lueluai, I'll give you Bailey as Ive never rated him. Warrington are also better off in that area with Morley and Carvell, and even Bradford could claim to compete with Lynch and Burgess!

Fielden isn't the same player he was i agree but are you telling me he's not good enough to be any teams 2nd, 3rd or 4th choice prop. No team in SL has four props in their squad that are all better than him. Some may have one or two as you mention but in modern day RL you need four props in your squad and Fielden would get in any team in SL on that basis. I’d rate him over Carvell, Lueluai, Puletua and maybe even Cayless. It’s far easier for those players to stand out with the calibre of players round them they have. Fielden has to do twice the amount of effort cause he’s carrying an weaker set of props. I’ll say it again a hard working prop like Guisset would transform our props and take a shed loads of work off Fielden.

Re: The Back Row : Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:21 pm  

thepriestman85 wrote:

Carmont was voted the best centre in the league last year hence his place in the dream team. I acknowledged in my last post Gidley is a better player but that doesn't mean Carmont isn't a good one either. My original post tho was all about how if you look through the Wigan team it's IMO a lot better than it's performing. Carmont is one of the best centres in the league but is the current coaching team making the most from his talents as say Saints are doing with Gidley? I don’t think they are……

Goulding is better than Atkins for me but it's all personal opinion at the end of day. He's defiantly better than the other centre's i mentioned and we could do far worse to partner Carmont. It’s not that bad of pairing really.



Again your right but how often do they hit form? One has a good game and then the other one has a good game rarely do they both perform consistently together. If Senior and Toopi/Albet(sp) can win the league then a pairing of Goulding and Carmont defiantly can. You can’t deny they if both were on the top of their game it would pose a threat to most teams.


Fielden isn't the same player he was i agree but are you telling me he's not good enough to be any teams 2nd, 3rd or 4th choice prop. No team in SL has four props in their squad that are all better than him. Some may have one or two as you mention but in modern day RL you need four props in your squad and Fielden would get in any team in SL on that basis. I’d rate him over Carvell, Lueluai, Puletua and maybe even Cayless. It’s far easier for those players to stand out with the calibre of players round them they have. Fielden has to do twice the amount of effort cause he’s carrying an weaker set of props. I’ll say it again a hard working prop like Guisset would transform our props and take a shed loads of work off Fielden.

As you say it's all about personal opinion, however I would say that Carvell is the more likely to make yards than fielden as is Kylie Leuluai, every time I have seen Lueluai play against us he has done some damage when he has come on, Fielden has never looked anything like. Cayless is fantastic for us, and we dont half miss him when he isnt playing, the difference in the side could be seen for all when he did play. Puletua, well the jury remains out yet, however I think Tony is in for a very big season, it's very rare someone will Captain an NRL side without being able to play a bit.

Re: The Back Row : Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:25 pm  

JLM23 wrote: As you say it's all about personal opinion, however I would say that Carvell is the more likely to make yards than fielden as is Kylie Leuluai, every time I have seen Lueluai play against us he has done some damage when he has come on, Fielden has never looked anything like. Cayless is fantastic for us, and we dont half miss him when he isnt playing, the difference in the side could be seen for all when he did play. Puletua, well the jury remains out yet, however I think Tony is in for a very big season, it's very rare someone will Captain an NRL side without being able to play a bit. Way off the mark. http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2008&hp1=1212&hs2=2008&hp2=29&stat=penalties&season=2008 Fielden beats them both in all facets of the game.

JLM23 wrote: As you say it's all about personal opinion, however I would say that Carvell is the more likely to make yards than fielden as is Kylie Leuluai, every time I have seen Lueluai play against us he has done some damage when he has come on, Fielden has never looked anything like. Cayless is fantastic for us, and we dont half miss him when he isnt playing, the difference in the side could be seen for all when he did play. Puletua, well the jury remains out yet, however I think Tony is in for a very big season, it's very rare someone will Captain an NRL side without being able to play a bit. Way off the mark. http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2008&hp1=1212&hs2=2008&hp2=29&stat=penalties&season=2008 Fielden beats them both in all facets of the game.

Re: The Back Row : Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:32 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote: Way off the mark. http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2008&hp1=1212&hs2=2008&hp2=29&stat=penalties&season=2008 Fielden beats them both in all facets of the game. Fieldens stats just for the 2nd half of last year would be very interesting and i'd think they'd compare well against most if not all props in superleague. He really did make massive strides to getting back to himself at the back end of last year and hopefully will take that into this season. I thought he was pretty quiet against Wakey yet made 105m which is a good effort. If he played every game this year and made an average of 105m per game he'd end the season with close to 3000m which is very good and will easily top the metres made by Carvell and Leuluai i'd imagine.

Rogues Gallery wrote: Way off the mark. http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2008&hp1=1212&hs2=2008&hp2=29&stat=penalties&season=2008 Fielden beats them both in all facets of the game. Fieldens stats just for the 2nd half of last year would be very interesting and i'd think they'd compare well against most if not all props in superleague. He really did make massive strides to getting back to himself at the back end of last year and hopefully will take that into this season. I thought he was pretty quiet against Wakey yet made 105m which is a good effort. If he played every game this year and made an average of 105m per game he'd end the season with close to 3000m which is very good and will easily top the metres made by Carvell and Leuluai i'd imagine.

Re: The Back Row : Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:35 pm  

Rogues Gallery wrote: Way off the mark. http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2008&hp1=1212&hs2=2008&hp2=29&stat=penalties&season=2008 Fielden beats them both in all facets of the game. Nice Try, But as usual you dont show the full picture. Fielden averages a gain of 7.19 metres per drive. Leuluai averages a gain of 7.64 metres per drive. Carvell averages a gain of 8.77 Metres per drive. Hence I suggest this would support my argument that they are both more likely to make more metres on a drive than Fielden.

Rogues Gallery wrote: Way off the mark. http://www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player.php?hs1=2008&hp1=1212&hs2=2008&hp2=29&stat=penalties&season=2008 Fielden beats them both in all facets of the game. Nice Try, But as usual you dont show the full picture. Fielden averages a gain of 7.19 metres per drive. Leuluai averages a gain of 7.64 metres per drive. Carvell averages a gain of 8.77 Metres per drive. Hence I suggest this would support my argument that they are both more likely to make more metres on a drive than Fielden.