Re: Wigan v Hull : Tue Aug 27, 2024 7:56 am  

NSW wrote:

He was great for us last year but isn’t playing like an international prop currently.

We need him to step up.

I remember Peet saying “I don’t want him to fit in - I want him to stand out”

He should be a tackle busting machine

Completely agree. He has been below average since he got his ban before the cup final. I'm wondering if hes feeling unsettled as Thompson and Havard are our main two props and generally play big minutes. Some players cant handle that, just a thought.

Re: Wigan v Hull : Tue Aug 27, 2024 10:12 am  

I said at the start of this season that the only 2 props I had nailed on in our first choice 17 would be Thompson and Havard and a few people were surprised I didn't have Dupree on that list. He played well at the end of last season and he started this season pretty well but I've always thought he plays within himself. He's a good player but there is more in him and he needs to find the sort of intensity that Luke Thompson plays with week in week out.

Thompson is a great example to all of our props about how you are allowed to go at full throttle week in, week out and you don't need to wait for the big games to come around to raise your level. Finding that consistency is always a challenge for a prop forward and the best ones can do that and Dupree, Byrne and Havard need to try and kick on in that regard (along with a whole host of other props around that age in Superleague). I do think Havard is getting there now and he's impressing me but the other two are too hot and cold. To cut Dupree and all the players some slack, the whole side is in a bit of a down period at the moment but I'd challenge guys like Dupree and Byrne to be the lads who lift the side and not just rely on Thompson, Ellis etc to do it.

Re: Wigan v Hull : Tue Aug 27, 2024 4:04 pm  

1872_WiganRLFC wrote:

Completely agree. He has been below average since he got his ban before the cup final. I'm wondering if hes feeling unsettled as Thompson and Havard are our main two props and generally play big minutes. Some players cant handle that, just a thought.

He seemed to drop after Saints away and that yellow card, he started to get easily frustrated and the ban after the Warrington game seems to have knocked his focus again.

Re: Wigan v Hull : Wed Aug 28, 2024 7:43 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

I said at the start of this season that the only 2 props I had nailed on in our first choice 17 would be Thompson and Havard and a few people were surprised I didn't have Dupree on that list. He played well at the end of last season and he started this season pretty well but I've always thought he plays within himself. He's a good player but there is more in him and he needs to find the sort of intensity that Luke Thompson plays with week in week out.

Thompson is a great example to all of our props about how you are allowed to go at full throttle week in, week out and you don't need to wait for the big games to come around to raise your level. Finding that consistency is always a challenge for a prop forward and the best ones can do that and Dupree, Byrne and Havard need to try and kick on in that regard (along with a whole host of other props around that age in Superleague). I do think Havard is getting there now and he's impressing me but the other two are too hot and cold. To cut Dupree and all the players some slack, the whole side is in a bit of a down period at the moment but I'd challenge guys like Dupree and Byrne to be the lads who lift the side and not just rely on Thompson, Ellis etc to do it.

i've just made a very similar comment on Warriors fans. 80 minute props for me are Thompson, Havard and Ellis (albeit playing 13). Its up to the others to maintain the intensity when they are used as subs, to ensure that we can play a high pace game or the full 80 minutes, and if we do, not many sides will be able to live with that. Our prop rotation this year is clearly something the club looked at with changes to disciplinary rules etc, and we've been able to turn out a decent pack when we've had injuries / suspensions every week

Re: Wigan v Hull : Wed Aug 28, 2024 8:08 am  

Mark_P1973 wrote:

i've just made a very similar comment on Warriors fans. 80 minute props for me are Thompson, Havard and Ellis (albeit playing 13). Its up to the others to maintain the intensity when they are used as subs, to ensure that we can play a high pace game or the full 80 minutes, and if we do, not many sides will be able to live with that. Our prop rotation this year is clearly something the club looked at with changes to disciplinary rules etc, and we've been able to turn out a decent pack when we've had injuries / suspensions every week

Earlier in the season, I thought the bench options like Dupree and Mago were really adding to us when they came on but there has been a drop off as the year has gone on. I do think a lot of that is just the fact it's a long season and the side has hit a dip but now is the time you'd like to see those guys make a real difference. One thing I will say is that their minutes have become a bit more limited as the season has gone on because of how good Thompson and Havard are and it does then become more difficult to impact a game. You look at Liam Byrne and limited minutes do not suit his game at all IMO and he's really struggling to get going. I'm not sure of the situation with Mike Cooper but if he does come back soon, I'd expect he'll be in the 17 and Byrne, Mago and Dupree will all be under threat then.

Re: Wigan v Hull : Wed Aug 28, 2024 10:50 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Earlier in the season, I thought the bench options like Dupree and Mago were really adding to us when they came on but there has been a drop off as the year has gone on. I do think a lot of that is just the fact it's a long season and the side has hit a dip but now is the time you'd like to see those guys make a real difference. One thing I will say is that their minutes have become a bit more limited as the season has gone on because of how good Thompson and Havard are and it does then become more difficult to impact a game. You look at Liam Byrne and limited minutes do not suit his game at all IMO and he's really struggling to get going. I'm not sure of the situation with Mike Cooper but if he does come back soon, I'd expect he'll be in the 17 and Byrne, Mago and Dupree will all be under threat then.

We need Cooper back he gives our 17 balance and experience.

Re: Wigan v Hull : Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:11 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Earlier in the season, I thought the bench options like Dupree and Mago were really adding to us when they came on but there has been a drop off as the year has gone on. I do think a lot of that is just the fact it's a long season and the side has hit a dip but now is the time you'd like to see those guys make a real difference. One thing I will say is that their minutes have become a bit more limited as the season has gone on because of how good Thompson and Havard are and it does then become more difficult to impact a game. You look at Liam Byrne and limited minutes do not suit his game at all IMO and he's really struggling to get going. I'm not sure of the situation with Mike Cooper but if he does come back soon, I'd expect he'll be in the 17 and Byrne, Mago and Dupree will all be under threat then.

I don't get the criticism applying to Mago. He never fails to make an impact when he comes on and the fact that he has been playing short minutes is down to the coaching staff as shown on Sunday. He did half an hour first stint and came back on for the last 20 (albeit he got the sin bin). There was no drop off in performance during either spell.

Re: Wigan v Hull : Wed Aug 28, 2024 11:53 am  

Phuzzy wrote:

I don't get the criticism applying to Mago. He never fails to make an impact when he comes on and the fact that he has been playing short minutes is down to the coaching staff as shown on Sunday. He did half an hour first stint and came back on for the last 20 (albeit he got the sin bin). There was no drop off in performance during either spell.

I think Sunday was slightly different as he was playing 13 and in a different role to normal

in regards to performance, i agree with NK, because Thompson and Havard are setting a high bar, and with real intensity, its difficult for the others to appear to be making the same impact, and this isnt necessarily criticising their performances, although in some instances they could be better.

the game i really looked at was at home v Saints where i think Thompson, Havard and Ellis, alongside Lees and a couple of the Saints pack played the full 80, although Lees was binned for 10. The subs on either side didnt really make an impact because the game was so intense, and they struggled to get into it. From memory we rotated Dupree that day, with Byrne, Mago and Hill as we started with no recognised hooker, and then Walters came on with about 15-20 to go for Junior, and again struggled to make an impact

i suppose another way of looking at things is Walters has appeared to have struggled all season coming off the bench, but when he started the last 2 games, he's looked a lot better and had more of an impact / influence on the games

Re: Wigan v Hull : Wed Aug 28, 2024 12:12 pm  

Mark_P1973 wrote:

I think Sunday was slightly different as he was playing 13 and in a different role to normal

in regards to performance, i agree with NK, because Thompson and Havard are setting a high bar, and with real intensity, its difficult for the others to appear to be making the same impact, and this isnt necessarily criticising their performances, although in some instances they could be better.

the game i really looked at was at home v Saints where i think Thompson, Havard and Ellis, alongside Lees and a couple of the Saints pack played the full 80, although Lees was binned for 10. The subs on either side didnt really make an impact because the game was so intense, and they struggled to get into it. From memory we rotated Dupree that day, with Byrne, Mago and Hill as we started with no recognised hooker, and then Walters came on with about 15-20 to go for Junior, and again struggled to make an impact

i suppose another way of looking at things is Walters has appeared to have struggled all season coming off the bench, but when he started the last 2 games, he's looked a lot better and had more of an impact / influence on the games

I don't think the roles are disimilar enough to make that conclusion Mark. Mago still ran the ball in from 13, carrying 3 or 4 players with him as he did so. You could argue that 13 is actually more aerobically challenging as you're on the ball far more often but still have to run it in like a prop. 13s traditionally have good engines for that very reason.

Mago is never going to be an 80 minute prop. We didn't sign him expecting him to be, so I think criticism because others are is a little unfair. The question should be "is he fulfilling the role we expect from him" and the answer to that is yes. I have rarely over the last 12 months or so seen him come on and not make an impact. He dents the defensive line better than any other prop, and that includes Thompson. That he hasn't done it for big minutes in many matches is, as I say, down to tactics. Peet, quite understandablely, likes Thompson, Harvard and Ellis on for as long as possible. Whether that's the right tactic long term is another argument and I've said many times that I think it carries risks.

Re: Wigan v Hull : Wed Aug 28, 2024 1:10 pm  

Phuzzy wrote:

I don't get the criticism applying to Mago. He never fails to make an impact when he comes on and the fact that he has been playing short minutes is down to the coaching staff as shown on Sunday. He did half an hour first stint and came back on for the last 20 (albeit he got the sin bin). There was no drop off in performance during either spell.

He was much better on Sunday to be fair and before that, I will give him plenty of leeway because his minutes have been extremely limited. In his time on the field though, he hasn't been as good in recent months as he was in that first half of the season but he isn't on his own. I think he's a victim of those limited minutes in many ways because he looks like a guy that needs time on the field to build up his match sharpness. Sunday could well do him a lot of good and help him keep a place because if Cooper does come back this season and with Ellis back this week (and Faz at some point) a few guys are going to miss out.