Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 7:38 am  

Jukesays wrote:

Yip
And 2 more benefits
1/ Transfer Fee

2/ he may not have signed the contract that hes leaving part way through in the first place if we dont put a clause in, so we may get 2 more years say put of a Bateman, Williams, Gildart etc that we wouldn't have got as if there was no get out they may have just moved on.

Sits back and prepares for the expected

As a super league club we have gone soft. I’ve never known a club where the tail wags the dog as much as it does at Wigan. We constantly put these clauses into players contracts basically putting everyone of them in the shop window. Now you could argue that if NRL clubs want to sign players then they will do regardless, I get that. What Annoys me is that we offer our players the incentive to go and play in the NRL instead of encouraging them to stay here.

I too sit back and wait for the expected.

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:14 am  

hatty wrote:

As a super league club we have gone soft. I’ve never known a club where the tail wags the dog as much as it does at Wigan. We constantly put these clauses into players contracts basically putting everyone of them in the shop window. Now you could argue that if NRL clubs want to sign players then they will do regardless, I get that. What Annoys me is that we offer our players the incentive to go and play in the NRL instead of encouraging them to stay here.

I too sit back and wait for the expected.

Not every situation is the same
Rushton is 19? Is he out of contract? If so there is only so much you can do same as Budgie 5 years ago, same as Sutton 18months ago
So if they decide to run down their contract that's up to them - Maybe if we offered those players one of the contracts you dislike they would stay, maybe they wouldn't - More on that later

But on the scenario you describe - When a more established player such as Tomkins circa 2011, Bateman 2016/17, Gildart 2018 etc. are coming to the end of their contracts it is different.

This is the Bit where I differ I think based on your response above.

What would you have done in those negotiations?

Sign 4yr deal here or go end of the year?
Let them go end of the year? For nothing etc.
Sign a say 2 year deal? (Then let them go for nothing - Which, if an offer isn't there from the NRL could be to a SL Rival for nothing.
Sign say a 4yr deal with an NRL clause at end of year 2 if said player wants to leave? Ensuring a transfer fee, Won't leave for a SL Rival, and/or a 1st option on return clause That the club may or may not wish to take up at that time. thus removing risk of a player they want going to a SL Rival.

You say :- "As a super league club we have gone soft. I’ve never known a club where the tail wags the dog as much as it does at Wigan"

What does that mean? What would you do? How would you stop the Tail wagging the Dog
How do we "offer our players the incentive to go and play in the NRL instead of encouraging them to stay here" - if the answer to this is we put the clause in their contract, How do you get them to sign that initial contract in the first place without it and risk losing them to a SL rival or the NRL 2 years earlier?
How does that or any contract CREATE an interest form the NRL if it isn't there from the NRL in the 1st place

Very easy to sit back and criticise, I don't WANT them to go if possible (And in Budgies case I had a 3 or 4 long conversations with his Mum & Dad about this very subject in 2015) but it is their life, they are not tied/slaves to their employer like they were 25 plus years ago, they are free to move, make their own choices (Rightly or wrongly in mine or your view).
Very easy to say this is what I would do, how does that stand up to scrutiny, in real life when sat face to face with Agents & the player, who again, rightly or wrongly, hold all the cards.

Sits back and waits

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 8:18 am  

Itchy Arsenal wrote:

I’ve got no problems with lads going to the NRL with a few seasons experience in SL but young lads with no first team experience is the thin end of the wedge

Effectively we should be a part time professional sport with our current slim pool of players. Take away the buds of youth and if it expands then very quickly you don’t have a supportable professional product

I don’t know the answer but a previous post on dual registration may be part of the solution

If Rushton succeeds (which I hope he does) this could encourage even more young guys to take a similar route.

Not a great situation

And without being funny, that's the problem
We all Don't like what's happening, finding a solution is the difficult bit

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:06 am  

Established players leaving for transfer fees is part of Lenagans business plan and he admitted that at a fans forum I attended a few years back. If we start to see the best young players leave before becoming established and for nothing, then it becomes a real problem because in the long term we then a)won’t produce good enough players to compete for trophies and b) we then won’t have any top quality players he can make money on.

We started the ball rolling on giving guys every opportunity to leave the club to try their hand at Union or the NRL years ago and unfortunately that is now engrained in our culture and the way we do things. These lads see their mates doing it, they see how open the club is to allowing them to go (for fees) and they negotiate their deals accordingly. This Rushton case is different and it genuinely worries me more him leaving them it did when Sam Tomkins, Bateman, Williams etc walked out the door. If it’s filtered down to juniors wanting to leave now and leave for nothing, we’ve got a major problem.

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 10:03 am  

Go and test yourself either in the NRL against better sides than here, or in the NSW Cup/Jersey Flegg against better sides than here, not to mention the lifestyle, seeing the world etc OR stay here playing against Swinton? That's before the money aspect comes into it.

Let's face it.....every single one of us would go to the NRL.

As for not letting them come back, would Utd have let Ronaldo go to Liverpool if he decided Madrid wasn't for him or would they want to sign him back?

If quality players are available we sign them, whether they've been here before or not. Not to mention the possible improvements in said player from playing/being coached in the NRL.

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:18 am  

NickyKiss wrote:

Established players leaving for transfer fees is part of Lenagans business plan and he admitted that at a fans forum I attended a few years back. If we start to see the best young players leave before becoming established and for nothing, then it becomes a real problem because in the long term we then a)won’t produce good enough players to compete for trophies and b) we then won’t have any top quality players he can make money on.

How do we stop that?
Remember Rushton is not even a 1st Teamer - His value is minimal over there, if he stayed here and played 2/3 seasons it's likely his value would be far greater ala Bateman/Williams etc.
The fact he wants to go means "he wants to go" - and there's not much anyone can do to stop that other than provide them with the best environment & structure we can, and pay them the best we can within reason to keep them here - This is were IFL has been very successful, The Youngsters are treats VASTLY better than they were 15 years ago. But it doesn't and never will stop it happening.
How many youngsters in football spend there entire youth careers at lower league clubs or other clubs academy's and then sign for a PL Big club at 16/17/18 - It's a similar scenario - The enticement is there and you can only deal with that the best way we can and I believe we do a pretty good job, unless we decide to stop producing talented youngsters then the problem will go away.

We started the ball rolling on giving guys every opportunity to leave the club to try their hand at Union or the NRL years ago and unfortunately that is now engrained in our culture and the way we do things. These lads see their mates doing it, they see how open the club is to allowing them to go (for fees) and they negotiate their deals accordingly. This Rushton case is different and it genuinely worries me more him leaving them it did when Sam Tomkins, Bateman, Williams etc walked out the door. If it’s filtered down to juniors wanting to leave now and leave for nothing, we’ve got a major problem.

Don't agree, in what way did we give guys "Every Opportunity"???
Saracens were offering ridiculous money for Joel T - Joel T himself wanted to go - Very difficult to stop - We didn't kick him out the door, we tried to keep him but it was too much from a Sport/club awash with money

The NRL stuff
As I say, how would we have got Sam T, George, Bateman (And even Farrell who has stayed) to sign the original contracts which kept them at the club for 2/3 years before they left if we didn't build these clauses in?
In what way would not building the clauses in have benefitted Wigan? They would either have gone earlier, or only signed 2/3 year deals and gone anyway?

The power is with the players these days, and overall it's the right thing, we just have to deal with it the best we can

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 11:41 am  

Jukesays wrote:

How do we stop that?
Remember Rushton is not even a 1st Teamer - His value is minimal over there, if he stayed here and played 2/3 seasons it's likely his value would be far greater ala Bateman/Williams etc.
The fact he wants to go means "he wants to go" - and there's not much anyone can do to stop that other than provide them with the best environment & structure we can, and pay them the best we can within reason to keep them here - This is were IFL has been very successful, The Youngsters are treats VASTLY better than they were 15 years ago. But it doesn't and never will stop it happening.
How many youngsters in football spend there entire youth careers at lower league clubs or other clubs academy's and then sign for a PL Big club at 16/17/18 - It's a similar scenario - The enticement is there and you can only deal with that the best way we can and I believe we do a pretty good job, unless we decide to stop producing talented youngsters then the problem will go away.


Don't agree, in what way did we give guys "Every Opportunity"???
Saracens were offering ridiculous money for Joel T - Joel T himself wanted to go - Very difficult to stop - We didn't kick him out the door, we tried to keep him but it was too much from a Sport/club awash with money

The NRL stuff
As I say, how would we have got Sam T, George, Bateman (And even Farrell who has stayed) to sign the original contracts which kept them at the club for 2/3 years before they left if we didn't build these clauses in?
In what way would not building the clauses in have benefitted Wigan? They would either have gone earlier, or only signed 2/3 year deals and gone anyway?

The power is with the players these days, and overall it's the right thing, we just have to deal with it the best we can

Nail on the head pal

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:09 pm  

Jukesays wrote:

How do we stop that?
Remember Rushton is not even a 1st Teamer - His value is minimal over there, if he stayed here and played 2/3 seasons it's likely his value would be far greater ala Bateman/Williams etc.
The fact he wants to go means "he wants to go" - and there's not much anyone can do to stop that other than provide them with the best environment & structure we can, and pay them the best we can within reason to keep them here - This is were IFL has been very successful, The Youngsters are treats VASTLY better than they were 15 years ago. But it doesn't and never will stop it happening.
How many youngsters in football spend there entire youth careers at lower league clubs or other clubs academy's and then sign for a PL Big club at 16/17/18 - It's a similar scenario - The enticement is there and you can only deal with that the best way we can and I believe we do a pretty good job, unless we decide to stop producing talented youngsters then the problem will go away.


Don't agree, in what way did we give guys "Every Opportunity"???
Saracens were offering ridiculous money for Joel T - Joel T himself wanted to go - Very difficult to stop - We didn't kick him out the door, we tried to keep him but it was too much from a Sport/club awash with money

The NRL stuff
As I say, how would we have got Sam T, George, Bateman (And even Farrell who has stayed) to sign the original contracts which kept them at the club for 2/3 years before they left if we didn't build these clauses in?
In what way would not building the clauses in have benefitted Wigan? They would either have gone earlier, or only signed 2/3 year deals and gone anyway?

The power is with the players these days, and overall it's the right thing, we just have to deal with it the best we can

How do we stop it regarding juniors? don’t know, don’t think we can. Im not suggesting there’s a way really, other than hoping the game here gets stronger and the exchange rate gets to a point it was at 15 years ago.

As for us giving them every opportunity, I said Lenagan said it was part of the business model at a fans forum to let these lads go to bring fees in. I’m not saying I’ve a problem with it by the way, we’ve been successful and hopefully will continue to be so. You only need to look at the stats to see how many Wigan players have gone to the NRL in comparison to other clubs to see that there’s more to this then just coincidence. Lenagan has mentioned many times as seeing these approaches as a compliment, not wanting to keep unhappy players etc and wishing them luck in trying their hand elsewhere. Again is that wrong? Our record would say not but it’s certainly not the approach you see from other clubs who come out and say they’ll do everything they can to fight to keep their players.

My point is you won’t sustain that plan and success if the best juniors get picked off before they’ve made a name for themselves in our first team. If we can’t keep them at Rushton’s age I worry where we’re heading more than I do when losing a ready made international. I don’t claim to have any suggestions of how we stop that happening. You certainly can’t start throwing big money at kids you can’t be sure will make it.

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 12:38 pm  

NickyKiss wrote:

How do we stop it regarding juniors? don’t know, don’t think we can. Im not suggesting there’s a way really, other than hoping the game here gets stronger and the exchange rate gets to a point it was at 15 years ago.

As for us giving them every opportunity, I said Lenagan said it was part of the business model at a fans forum to let these lads go to bring fees in. I’m not saying I’ve a problem with it by the way, we’ve been successful and hopefully will continue to be so. You only need to look at the stats to see how many Wigan players have gone to the NRL in comparison to other clubs to see that there’s more to this then just coincidence. Lenagan has mentioned many times as seeing these approaches as a compliment, not wanting to keep unhappy players etc and wishing them luck in trying their hand elsewhere. Again is that wrong? Our record would say not but it’s certainly not the approach you see from other clubs who come out and say they’ll do everything they can to fight to keep their players.

My point is you won’t sustain that plan and success if the best juniors get picked off before they’ve made a name for themselves in our first team. If we can’t keep them at Rushton’s age I worry where we’re heading more than I do when losing a ready made international. I don’t claim to have any suggestions of how we stop that happening. You certainly can’t start throwing big money at kids you can’t be sure will make it.

I haven't missed a Fans Forum so can only assume the "Business Model" your referring to is the same one I heard.

I didn't interpret that the same as you (Maybe a Rogues can confirm his understanding?)

I believe when he said Business model, I didn't take it that we were producing players with the Sole intention of selling them to make money for a Business model.
My interpretation was that we give them slightly longer contracts with the release clause to benefit from them leaving if they Choose to do so. This in turn helps Wigan's business model because we are recouping some/all/more of the outlay for producing them in the first place.

I would Hazard a guess that given the Choice Wigan would have Chosen to retain ALL of the players that left for NRL rather than take the money, but once you can't keep them it's better get something for them?

I used to know a local lad quite well who although a professional footballer in his own right made his name as Man Utd Youth Team coach/development back in the Mid 90s
He told us that they had processes and systems in place throughout the 90's early 00's to coach & train their youth players and their sole intention was to develop them as 1st Team players
BUT
If they chose to move on due to lack of opportunity, they wanted 1st team to soon for Man Utd of they were poached etc. their Value as an asset was increased as they were Products of the United system. Clubs knew they were getting good players, brought up with the right ethics and coached in the right way. The money made can then be reinvested to develop and maintain more youth and hope to cherry pick the best.

My belief is that we can only hope that we get a similar reputation/system in place - But unlike a United or a Liverpool who seem to be doing something similar now, We are not the PEAK of our sport and until that changes we will lose youngsters who have different views, different aspirations etc.

Not sure of the rules, but do we get something for players say under 21 (I'm sure there was a rule in place were you could be compensated if you lost a player under a certain age?)

Re: Canberra Signing : Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:11 pm  

I don’t think the intention is solely to sell them on at all but I think the hope is that we keep producing enough good ones to keep being successful, whilst knowing that some are likely to move on and to be in a position when they do, that we financially benefit from that.

The long and short of it is that’s it’s basically a bit frustrating if a kid as young as Rushton walks for free. No blame being given to anyone at all but really sad to see him go. We can only hope it’ll be an isolated loss. If young Havard walls as well then that’s a huge kick in the teeth for the club.