Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:17 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

You really think that Guardiola's far superior to Mourinho?

Well yes of course, he'd easily be able to go to all these other countrys and win trophy after trophy. I mean it wasn't as if he was simply handed this Barcelona team was it?

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:17 pm  

Smiggs wrote:

I'm forever blowing bubbles!!

They've done well but then again even Leeds United managed to beat this side last season

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:26 pm  

I'm sure Fergie's devastated. He might even manage to shrug a shoulder over it.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:58 pm  

MrPhilb wrote:

Well yes of course, he'd easily be able to go to all these other countrys and win trophy after trophy. I mean it wasn't as if he was simply handed this Barcelona team was it?

A team which hadn't won the league for two years.
During his time in charge he's managed to offload Samuel Eto'o, Giovani dos Santos, Edmílson, Deco, Ronaldinho, Gianluca Zambrotta, Oleguer Presas, Santiago Ezquerro, Marc Crosas. Has anyone other than Eto'o done anything of note since they left the Camp Nou?
He's bought in Dani Alves, Seydou Keita, Gerard Piqué and brought Sergio Busquets, Pedro and Jeffrén into the first team. He isn't on the same level as Alex Ferguson obviously and I don't believe he's on the same level as Mourinho yet. As for winning leagues in different countries, well I don't think Guardiola will ever be able to be judged on that as I can't see him managing anywhere other than Barcelona.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:26 pm  

The thing about Mourinho is, he's picked his jobs very well and also timed his exits perfectly. He's an effective coach rather than a good one IMO, he knows how to grind out wins but does not produce good football teams.

Of all his achievements, Porto's European Cup is still the only one that genuinely impresses me. He went to Chelsea when they were playing fantasy football with their spending, so no wonder he achieved some domestic success. He then left when the fans were still in love with him and managed to shift the blame to Abramovich/Grant etc. Then he moved on to a side who had won the league for the last 3 years and simply maintained their position, then added a European Cup with his usual grinding tactics. He again timed his exit superbly when the team was getting older and could only go downhill (especially when they appointed an eccentric to replace him). His next job was another good choice too, a long line of underachievement with another licence to spend big. Almost certain to finish 2nd, if he wins something he'll be lauded again, if he doesn't it's just the unstoppable might of Barcelona that's too much to compete with.

He drops hints about the Portugal job but has so far shied away from it. My guess is that he's waiting for either a failure to qualify for a major tournament (so he can step in and be the saviour for the next tournament after the blip passes), or for a new 'golden generation' to emerge with a genuine chance of winning.

This reputation as a tactical genius with a golden touch is somewhat overblown IMO.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:30 pm  

Robbie Rotten wrote:

Real didn't play because they weren't allowed to play, it's that simple. Villa, Pedro and Messi were allover them from the front. Real's team was massively imbalanced, they massively lacked athleticism in midfield and they never attempted to defend from the front.

Barca are 5 goals better than Madrid when it comes to the strength and chemistry of the team, Madrid have great names, but last night's result didn't flatter Barca or do their performance justice. Madrid have received a lot of hype this year, but this was their first test and they were blown out of the water, they were completely outplayed by a side that is far superior to them in every single aspect of the game, including management.

Mourinho got it badly wrong last night, he should have taken the chance presented by Higuain's injury to boost the midfield with Diarra but, maybe not wanting to lose face with a defensive move, he went with Benzema - as you say he and Ronaldo are never going to defend from the front, essential against Barca and a midfield three of Ozil, Alonso and Khedira were never going to be able to live with the movement and incisive passing. Defensively they just seemed to be playing an offside trap which is suicide against opposition like that.

I hope Manuel Pellegrini had a good laugh watching that last night anyway.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:38 pm  

Catalancs wrote:

A team which hadn't won the league for two years.

They were really in a terrible way then?

During his time in charge he's managed to offload Samuel Eto'o, Giovani dos Santos, Edmílson, Deco, Ronaldinho, Gianluca Zambrotta, Oleguer Presas, Santiago Ezquerro, Marc Crosas. Has anyone other than Eto'o done anything of note since they left the Camp Nou?

"Managed to offload"??? As though it's difficult to find someone to take Eto'o, Ronaldinho off your hands.

He's bought in Dani Alves, Seydou Keita, Gerard Piqué and brought Sergio Busquets, Pedro and Jeffrén into the first team. He isn't on the same level as Alex Ferguson obviously and I don't believe he's on the same level as Mourinho yet.

One of the, IMO stupid, criticisms of Mourinho was that it's okay managing Chelsea to the title, but what would he do with Torquay United?

I think that was completely ridiculous, seeing that Mourinho had worked his way from being a "translator" for Robson to Leira, earned his shot at Porto and won the CL with them. He's earned his place at the top tier of managers.

Guardiola clearly hasn't earned his position. He's just the lucky recipient of Barca's willingness to take a chance on an ex-player. He has had fantastic success at Barca, but that doesn't mean he is a good manager. Gullit and Vialli had success at Chelsea, but they couldn't do 5hit anywhere else. Similar story with Rijkaard.

As for winning leagues in different countries, well I don't think Guardiola will ever be able to be judged on that as I can't see him managing anywhere other than Barcelona.

If he wins 20 titles and 5 CL's at Barca then he'll rightly be regarded very highly.

If he wins a couple more titles and then leaves Barca to play with his train sets then he won't.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:50 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

They were really in a terrible way then? Not in my opinion, but they were quite a way off Madrid in a two team league.

I think that was completely ridiculous, seeing that Mourinho had worked his way from being a "translator" for Robson to Leira, earned his shot at Porto and won the CL with them. He's earned his place at the top tier of managers. A translator who was on the coaching team and later took charge of Barça B games.

Guardiola clearly hasn't earned his position. He's just the lucky recipient of Barca's willingness to take a chance on an ex-player. He has had fantastic success at Barca, but that doesn't mean he is a good manager. Gullit and Vialli had success at Chelsea, but they couldn't do 5hit anywhere else. Similar story with Rijkaard. He was given the job on the back of turning the B team from relegation candidates to division champions.

If he wins 20 titles and 5 CL's at Barca then he'll rightly be regarded very highly. He's already regarded highly at the club. He doesn't seem as bothered as some other managers with being classed as a managerial legend.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:04 pm  

I do think Guardiola is underrated as a coach, in his first season Barca finished about 8 or 9 points clear at the top, the season before he took charge they had finished a distant 3rd, ten points behind Villarreal in second, one less win and they wouldn't even have made the Champions League that they ended up winning.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:07 pm  

carl_spackler wrote:

The thing about Mourinho is, he's picked his jobs very well and also timed his exits perfectly. He's an effective coach rather than a good one IMO, he knows how to grind out wins but does not produce good football teams.

How is a coach winning the CL with Porto and Inter not "good"?

Of all his achievements, Porto's European Cup is still the only one that genuinely impresses me.

10 years as a manager - 1 defeat at home in the league. You might not be impressed, but there'll be no one else in football history with a record like that.

He went to Chelsea when they were playing fantasy football with their spending, so no wonder he achieved some domestic success.

Some domestic success? FFS.

He then left when the fans were still in love with him and managed to shift the blame to Abramovich/Grant etc.

Shift the blame??? Even if Mourinho was fiddling with 5 year old boys in his free time Chelsea should have been chaining him to Stamford Bridge so he couldn't leave. Of course Abramovich was to blame for him going. Grant should have been nowhere near Chelsea.

If Mourihno was going to leave Chelsea he would have done it, just like he did with Porto and Inter. Chelsea got rid of him, IMO, because Abramovich thought that anyone could manage Chelsea to success and Mourinho didn't deserve the praise. He was clearly wrong.

Then he moved on to a side who had won the league for the last 3 years and simply maintained their position, then added a European Cup with his usual grinding tactics.

Beating Barca 3-1 in the CL semi. Grinding tactics.

He again timed his exit superbly when the team was getting older and could only go downhill (especially when they appointed an eccentric to replace him).

League title, cup and Champions League. There is pretty much nowhere else but downhill.

And 99% of clubs would willingly accept a league title and CL before a manager leaves.

His next job was another good choice too, a long line of underachievement with another licence to spend big. Almost certain to finish 2nd, if he wins something he'll be lauded again, if he doesn't it's just the unstoppable might of Barcelona that's too much to compete with.

A good choice. It's one of the best jobs in world football. But it's also clearly difficult. Not only do the stupid ***** at Madrid want titles and and CL's, they want to tell you how you play as well.

He drops hints about the Portugal job but has so far shied away from it.

He's made it clear he wants to manage Portugal, but he's also made it clear he sees it as a job for when he's older. He clearly wants day in day out control of a top club.

If you're fighting for titles in England and Spain WTF would you give that up to work part time as an international manager?

My guess is that he's waiting for either a failure to qualify for a major tournament (so he can step in and be the saviour for the next tournament after the blip passes), or for a new 'golden generation' to emerge with a genuine chance of winning.

From hazy memory, he asked if he'd be allowed to coach Portugal part time for the last world cup but Inter said no way. Which, IMO, Inter were right to do.

The Madrid job is a million times better than the Portugal job, so he's right to be there.

This reputation as a tactical genius with a golden touch is somewhat overblown IMO.

TBH, your assessment of how he took Porto to the CL, Chelsea to the titles, Inter to the CL and earned himself the Real job clearly shows tactical genius. You're just too much of a cl to realise it.