Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:23 pm  

Asim wrote:

I do think Guardiola is underrated as a coach, in his first season Barca finished about 8 or 9 points clear at the top, the season before he took charge they had finished a distant 3rd, ten points behind Villarreal in second, one less win and they wouldn't even have made the Champions League that they ended up winning.

We hadn't won a thing for 25 years. Gullit won the FA Cup for us. Vialli won the UEFA, FA Cup and League Cup. (dodgy memory alert - can't be arsed to check it.)

Are Vialli and Gullit good coaches? I don't think the geordies, Watford and LA think so.

Right Guard won the CL and league with Barca? Is he a good coach?

Avram Grant was a penalty kick away from winning the Champions League. He outperformed Ferguson in his time at CFC. Is he a good coach? Taking two clubs to the Championship in 2 years suggests he isn't.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:27 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

We hadn't won a thing for 25 years. Gullit won the FA Cup for us. Vialli won the UEFA, FA Cup and League Cup. (dodgy memory alert - can't be arsed to check it.)

Are Vialli and Gullit good coaches? I don't think the geordies, Watford and LA think so. No

Right Guard won the CL and league with Barca? Is he a good coach? Yes

Avram Grant was a penalty kick away from winning the Champions League. He outperformed Ferguson in his time at CFC. Is he a good coach? Taking two clubs to the Championship in 2 years suggests he isn't.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:40 pm  

Catalancs wrote:

Not in my opinion, but they were quite a way off Madrid in a two team league.

And Madrid decided to make it 2 Championship winning managers in 2 years that they got rid of.

It might be Guardiola's talent that won the league for them. But it might just have been Real's mental illness which gifted the league to Barca.

A translator who was on the coaching team and later took charge of Barça B games.

He was clearly not just a translator. Calling him a translator is a snide dig at him.

But Mourinhio has clearly worked and earned his position. Guardiola has not.

He doesn't seem as bothered as some other managers with being classed as a managerial legend.

And maybe that's why he'll be out of football in a few years?

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:45 pm  

Catalancs wrote:

Rijkaard is a good coach

His record at Sparta Rotterdam and Galatasaray suggest otherwise.

The fact that he managed Gala' after managing Barca suggests otherwise.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:47 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

His record at Sparta Rotterdam and Galatasaray suggest otherwise.
The fact that he managed Gala' after managing Barca suggests otherwise.

Sorry, for Right Guard I read Guardiola. Rijkaard lost control of the dressing room and was too close to many of the senior players according to many over here.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:47 pm  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

You really think that Guardiola's far superior to Mourinho?

No, not really, but Barca, as a team, that includes Barca's coaching staff in its entirety, are a lot better than Madrid's. The way Barca are coached is simply many levels above any side in Europe. That doesn't mean they aren't beatable, they can be beaten, but no side is anywhere near their level when at their peak, IMO. Barca's football isn't just a spot of luck, or a golden generation of players that just so happened to come through/peak when Guardiola came in, it's the result of hard work, commitment, brains and a 'vision' that has been brought to life to almost perfection.

Mourinho is a good coach, he massively emphasises on the psychological side of things, but that's why I don't think he's a 'great' coach, if that makes sense? Yes, people will point to achievements and various statistics, but what I see on the field isn't 'great', I don't see a side that is coached to play great football, a side that is coached to play fluidly, and a side that is built with attacking intentions. Maybe it's an unwritten law or something, but I feel if a coach can't coach his side to play great football, then it shows an inability to coach a side to do that. If Mourinho could build a great side that could win, entertain yet have his 'stamp' on it, then I feel he'd seal his place in greatness. My opinion matters little, obviously, and you'll be quick to rubbish it, as per, but I still think if Mourinho was to be remembered as a true great, then he'd have to show more than one way to win.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:55 pm  

A golden generation with plenty of football ahaed of them;
Valdes - 28, Dani Alves -27, Piqué - 23, David Villa - 28, Iniesta - 26, Bojan - 20, Messi - 23, Jeffren - 22, Mascherano - 26, Sergio - 22, Pedro - 23, Adriano - 26

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:57 am  

Robbie Rotten wrote:

No, not really, but Barca, as a team, that includes Barca's coaching staff in its entirety, are a lot better than Madrid's. The way Barca are coached is simply many levels above any side in Europe. That doesn't mean they aren't beatable, they can be beaten, but no side is anywhere near their level when at their peak, IMO. Barca's football isn't just a spot of luck, or a golden generation of players that just so happened to come through/peak when Guardiola came in, it's the result of hard work, commitment, brains and a 'vision' that has been brought to life to almost perfection.

Fair enough. Good answer.

Mourinho is a good coach, he massively emphasises on the psychological side of things, but that's why I don't think he's a 'great' coach, if that makes sense? Yes, people will point to achievements and various statistics, but what I see on the field isn't 'great', I don't see a side that is coached to play great football, a side that is coached to play fluidly, and a side that is built with attacking intentions. Maybe it's an unwritten law or something, but I feel if a coach can't coach his side to play great football, then it shows an inability to coach a side to do that. If Mourinho could build a great side that could win, entertain yet have his 'stamp' on it, then I feel he'd seal his place in greatness. My opinion matters little, obviously, and you'll be quick to rubbish it, as per, but I still think if Mourinho was to be remembered as a true great, then he'd have to show more than one way to win.

Two years at Porto, three years at Chelsea, two years at Inter. 6 titles, 2 CL wins, 1 UEFA Cup, 5 cups.

Not only has he got to do that, in 3 countries, 3 different languages, but he's got to do it in a style pleasant to you as well???

I dispute that Mourinho plays boring football anyway. He makes it clear that the goal is the silverware at the end of the season, so he's not big on hammering dross sides 7-0 when you can kill off the game at 3 and conserve energy. But when Chelsea had Robben and Duff flying down the wings they were fantastic to watch. Part of the problem was that Robben and Duff were rarely available and that kind of talent is difficult to find.

In the season where we didn't win the title, the title was out of reach because of a 1-1 draw at the Emirates. But (dodgy memory alert again) at the Emirates we were 1-0 down at half time and were playing with ten men. We played them off the park in the second half with 10 men and got a 1-1 draw.

IMO Mourinho hasn't really had the opportunity to play different "attractive" styles of football, he's been too busy winning things. The one season he didn't win the league, he was sacked ridiculously early the next season. People jerk off about Wenger all the time, but he's had 5 years of winning nothing and he's still in a job. Mourinho could win La Liga and the CL this season and still end up fired, such is the difference between the Arsenal job and the Real one.

IMO Mourinho will be at Real for the next ten+ years. I think multiple titles and CL's will be won and they will also play a great deal of magnificent football. I just don't see a move to Citeh or United being an option for JM, unless Real decide to do an Abramovich and slit their own wrists.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:00 am  

Catalancs wrote:

A golden generation with plenty of football ahaed of them;
Valdes - 28, Dani Alves -27, Piqué - 23, David Villa - 28, Iniesta - 26, Bojan - 20, Messi - 23, Jeffren - 22, Mascherano - 26, Sergio - 22, Pedro - 23, Adriano - 26

And if/when Real consign Barca to an Arsenal situation where everyone loves their style but they win FA, Mourinho's detractors will be saying it was just inevitable that the wealth of Real made it happen.

Re: The Football Chat Thread : Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:06 am  

Lord God Jose Mourinho wrote:

Two years at Porto, three years at Chelsea, two years at Inter. 6 titles, 2 CL wins, 1 UEFA Cup, 5 cups.

Not only has he got to do that, in 3 countries, 3 different languages, but he's got to do it in a style pleasant to you as well???

No, he hasn't 'got' to do that, he's obviously had great success doing it his way, whilst he uses the critics' views to spur his side on. I'm not saying he has to do it, I just feel if he's to leave the great legacy, then he should do something Fergie-like, Wenger-like, to build some form of side that oozes every ounce of his ability as a coach. I'd be a fool to dismiss his achievements, they speak for themselves, but to put some in perspective, he's done it all in very similar ways: forming an experienced side of winners, taking them to titles and motivating them to use all their experience into proving the doubters wrong; he's exceptional at creating the us versus them mentality, but I'm interested to see what else he has in his arsenal. He's signed some good players at Madrid, but their lack of winners, particularly at the back (only Carvalho really stands out, although I'm sure many will claim Iker is still the lord, whilst Pepe can be excellent, he too is unreliable), will lead to Mourinho struggling, IMO. If he keeps this core of players together, adds players but maybe doesn't bring in the finished articles; the Sneijders, Lucios, Eto'os and Militos of the world, and instead chooses to develop those in front of him, we may then see the true depth of his coaching ability.

As I say, he's a good coach, but to be remembered as an utter great, he has to show an ability for his sides to 'play' with his style, he's the best around psychologically, but I've yet to see the true variety in his ability as a manager.