Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:48 pm  

Quick Question.

4-4-2 or 4-5-1?

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:53 pm  

Stand-Offish wrote:

Oddly enough...I think we would have played better against better sides....we are that fooking contrary.

But the bottom line is ....everyone is starting to lose interest......and we want to avoid more embarrassment....so if we don't make it out of the group it's almost a relief to end the national embarrassment.

We really need to accept as a national side we are third rate and will never win the world cup again and we should relish any crumbs of comfort that come our way.....we are a over-hyped bag of sh/te.

IMO, our problem is that we hype certain players and try to cram them all into the team, regardless of whether they compliment each other or not. When it doesn't work we still persist with proven methods of failure rather than change tack. Gerrard and Lampard is a prime example. They've never worked together in a 4-4-2, so either change the system or bite the bullet and pick which one you want.

It's about time we picked a balanced TEAM, and not 11 hyped names. If that means a few noses being pushed out of joint and some so-called 'stars' being benched or even discarded altogether, so be it.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:01 pm  

I think the FA better get Roy hodgson's phone number quick before Liverpool get it as this time next week we'll be looking for a new manager.I can't see Capello changing things in the next few days as he's too stubborn to say he's got it wrong and change the formation and the way we play.

I don't know what J Cole has done but surely he's a better bet to do something than SWP.As for Rooney I hope he is carrying an injury because if he isn't that display tonight was a disgrace,from the start he didn't look interested and his comments at the end are a smack in the face to all the England fans that save up for months and years to travel all over the world only to watch that shower of sh!te put in that performance.They've can boo who they want after having to put up withone of the worst England displays I can ever remember seeing.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:11 pm  

Leaguefan wrote:

:BLAH:

What a well reasoned reply. On second thought's I'm awfully glad you decided to drop by

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:11 pm  

DAR130 wrote:

I think the FA better get Roy hodgson's phone number quick before Liverpool get it as this time next week we'll be looking for a new manager.I can't see Capello changing things in the next few days as he's too stubborn to say he's got it wrong and change the formation and the way we play.

We can have any manager we want, but the biggest problem is not, and never has been, the manager.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:01 pm  

I haven't read this thread as I'm guessing it contains the same old arguments about why England aren't very good. The reality is England have never been good at football and the sooner people realise that the better. From about 1950 when we started realising other countries actually played football we have never been the football power we think we are, barring one exception in 1966 the myth of which haunts England to this day. England's first 4 World Cups were total disasters, crashing out in all of them almost as soon as they got there. These squads contained people regarded in the British game as total gods, Finney, Matthews, Wright, Lofthouse, Charlton, Greaves, Moore, Mortensen, Milburn, Mannion etc yet we were either out in the group stage or the quarters at the laterst every time.

Then you get to 1966, which people now hark back to as some sort of a golden age when England showed Johnny Foreigner how to play the game and it's only a matter of time before we return to that kind of domination if only we can get better at penalties or employ the right manager, right tactics etc. In reality '66 was a blip on the other wise totally ordinary record of the England national team. There were some incredibly ropey results in the build up to '66, home defeats to Austria, draws with Wales, Scotland, Holland and Belgium. England probably wouldn't have qualified if they weren't hosts. Home advantage, being able to play all their games at Wembley, referees allowing some shocking rough housing tactics against the likes of Brazil and Pele in particular, Nobby Stiles getting away with kicking Eusebio to bits in the sembo, Rattin getting sent off in a game England were otherwise unlikely to win, the goal that never was in the final the list is endless of things that went England's way. While you can't take the achievement away from them it would have been harder not to win the World Cup in 1966 than it was to win it. By 1967 Scotland had won at Wembley and by '74 England couldn't even qualify from a group of Wales and Poland.

I won't bother going through every example of England's failure since then as everyone already knows them, but the myth of 1990 is another nonsense. At the start of the tournament the press were calling for them to be sent home such was the awfulness of the performances. Scraped wins against Belgium and the footballing giants of Cameroon and a gutsy lost to Germany with Gazza crying and it became a great hard luck story.

The point I'm getting at is the problems of English football are the fundamentals. Why do we spend £800 million on the new Wembley yet we haven't as yet built ourselves a National Football Centre that would be of infinitely more use? Why can't we produce a player who can run and kick with his left foot that we can play on the wing? Why does every nation we play keep the ball with so much more ease? Why do our kids still play on full side pitches at ridiculously young ages? Why can Northern Ireland produce George Best and we can't? The only surprise is we act surprised every time we get knocked out.

I don't really give two tuppences about England but it just annoys me when people think we should be dispensing peasant nations like Algeria because we are England! Just because we like football doesn't mean we are good at it. PNG loves Rugby League but it doesn't create them a good team. For what it's worth I think England will sneak through and draw permitting go on an Italia 90 style run.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:02 pm  

England's approach to football as a whole is the problem. It is never 'why not fix the problem to stop it happening again?' it is always 'get rid of the problem, forget about it', like Robert Green. Don't ask why is he making the mistakes, don't ask why Carson made those mistakes years ago, just drop them, it's much easier that way.

I mean, is it any wonder why we struggle so much when we're relying on a player like Frank Lampard in a 4-4-2? A makeshift central midfielder who clearly isn't up to the job. What does Capello actually expect Frank to do? Win the ball back? Create chances? Dictate play ala Xavi? Spray passes around the field and control from deep ala Alonso? Frank does none of these things. Frank Lampard's game is based around the entire way Chelsea play, he plays alongside a big target man striker, he has a midfield and defence behind him that swings the ball from flank to flank, probing space before putting it in for players like Drogba and Anelka, if the cross happens to reach the edge of the box, Frank is there to score, but Frank doesn't pull the strings from deep, so why is Capello trying to get him to do so?

England need to ask themselves 'why don't we have a player like Xavi?' Whilst Spain have Alonso, Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta and many more plying their trade in la liga. I don't accept that players like Xavi are just naturally gifted, he's a pint sized midfielder with limited athletic ability, but he's been coached and responded to coaching in such a way that has made him world class. Obviously, some of it is natural, his ability to understand the game and make correct decisions isn't that of an ordinary footballer, but England don't have a player who can come close to doing what he does. Only Paul Scholes springs to mind of recent memory, but he's considered one of our greatest midfielders ever, 'a once in a lifetime player', whilst I feel we should be rolling these players off of conveyor belts given the facilities and funding we have available.

It's pretty simple, until grass roots coaching improves, until it's nationally accepted that we will not progress at all as a nation if we don't accept that our philosophies of playing the modern game are completely wrong. We could have Mourinho, Guardiola, Fergie or Wenger, neither coach would succeed if they are given the current pool of players to select from, simply because they are a decade behind what countries like Spain, Argentina, Brazil and France are producing.


As for tonight, well, I made the point months back and I'll continue to do so: England's pedestrian midfield will forever be their downfall. Sides can just pass through us with relative ease, there is no industry, no tenacity, no strength, no mobility and a distinct lack of intensity both with the ball and without the ball. People criticize some people for overrating the defensive midfielder in today's game, but I watched Argentina play effectively a one-man midfield the other day with Mascherano dominating the middle, if we had him tonight we'd have slaughtered Algeria, as his ability to win the ball back and pressure the opponents would have resulted in us putting much more consistent pressure on Algeria. We were having one attack every 10 minutes or so, if that, simply because Algeria found it easy to win the ball back, hold it up for a bit in our half, then defend it easily.


A few other side notes; play Gerrard behind Rooney with Barry and Carrick/THudd behind him, get Heskey on the plane back. If Rooney and Gerrard don't hit it off as a striker partnership in our last game but we still go through, stick Crouch and Defoe up front, Lennon on the left, SWP on the right with Barry and Carrick/THudd in midfield.

I'm still in disbelief that he didn't take Adam Johnson but he took SWP. Johnson could have made such a difference to that side, instead we're left with sloppy players lacking mobility. Typical chuffing Italian.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:16 pm  

GCM1980 wrote:

We can have any manager we want, but the biggest problem is not, and never has been, the manager.

Of course we are nowhere near as good as plenty like to think, or as the media like to build us up to be (but only to knock us down), but Capello does have to take some criticism for the current situation.

I've scanned through the comments on here, and it's the same old stuff, it's all Heskey's fault (seriously people, get a grip), Lampard and Gerrard can't play in the same team, we can't play 4-4-2 etc etc - the only thing I'm waiting for is the old Sven bashing line of "he can't inspire us because he's a foreigner" I'm sure it won't take too long.

Those of us who actually watch football when it isn't the World Cup, and aren't reactionary idiots jumping on the same old blame bandwagons could point out that we qualified in style for this tournament (in Croatia and Ukraine we got past 2 teams who are better than anything we have faced so far in the tournament) by playing 4-4-2, with Heskey up front and Lampard and Gerrard in the same midfield, for me one of the big problems is that it seems to be all we have got, or at least it is all Capello seems to be willing to go with.

I just can't see why he hasn't worked on another system to try out when things aren't going our way playing how he wants us to, our opponents have had plenty of time to study our system and find ways to restrict us, and it is always likely you'll need a plan B, C or even D - Capello is risking all the good he undoubtedly has done by seeming to be unwilling to change things.

You've also got to wonder if our players are up to these tournaments after a season of high tempo, kick and rush, Premier League football - it seemed to me that there is a lack of energy throughout the team, and lots of Premier League players seemed to pull out of this tournament for various teams, maybe it isn't more than any other league and it's just the news we get, but our players do look very jaded.

I'm under no illusions that we could win the thing or even get close, but we do have plenty of good players ought to be playing a hell of a lot better than we have done so far.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:31 pm  

I'm at a loss. That was easily one of the worst displays I have seen from England in quite some time. I can't understand how a team with the same personel and manager produced such good football and won matches in qualifying yet can't string 5 passes together in the WC.

Capello to me is making mistakes, SWP should not be within a 1000 miles of SA yet he takes off a genuine threat in Lennon and replaces him with a bloke who just runs into defenders!! Barry did a job in qualifying but his problem is he struggles to pass the ball, I honestly think Carrick or Huddlestone would do a far better job than him. Why oh why is he persisting with Heskey, I know the value he brings to a side but this is International football and we need both strikers to carry a goal threat, I thought we looked much better with Defoe on.

Rooney - he just can't be fit. His touch was awful, he should little desire, he got out muscled several times and he looked really unhappy. Most comments will be about his comment towards the England fans after tha game but to me that was pure frustration. I just don't think he is fit and that is a big problem for England as he is our main man.

There has to be changes for the next game and Fabio has to be bold.

James
Johnson, Dawson, Terry, Cole
Carrick
Lennon, Lampard, Cole
Gerrard
Rooney

That's how I would go and we need out fullbacks to get forward more, espcially Cole who has done nothing so far.

The thing is Capello is stubborn and things just won't change.

Re: FIFA World Cup 2010 : Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:36 pm  

PAUL M wrote:

I'm at a loss. That was easily one of the worst displays I have seen from England in quite some time. I can't understand how a team with the same personel and manager produced such good football and won matches in qualifying yet can't string 5 passes together in the WC.

Capello to me is making mistakes, SWP should not be within a 1000 miles of SA yet he takes off a genuine threat in Lennon and replaces him with a bloke who just runs into defenders!! Barry did a job in qualifying but his problem is he struggles to pass the ball, I honestly think Carrick or Huddlestone would do a far better job than him. Why oh why is he persisting with Heskey, I know the value he brings to a side but this is International football and we need both strikers to carry a goal threat, I thought we looked much better with Defoe on.

Rooney - he just can't be fit. His touch was awful, he should little desire, he got out muscled several times and he looked really unhappy. Most comments will be about his comment towards the England fans after tha game but to me that was pure frustration. I just don't think he is fit and that is a big problem for England as he is our main man.

There has to be changes for the next game and Fabio has to be bold.

James
Johnson, Dawson, Terry, Cole
Carrick
Lennon, Lampard, Cole
Gerrard
Rooney

That's how I would go and we need out fullbacks to get forward more, espcially Cole who has done nothing so far.

The thing is Capello is stubborn and things just won't change.

Why do you think a manager who has had nothing but success in his managerial career is the one in the wrong and not the quality of the England players?