My Verdict : Sat Feb 04, 2012 1:34 pm  

I have slept on the matter in a effort to avoid knee jerk conclusions.
after consideration i draw the following conclusions from last night:

Pros/cause for optimism;
*The attendance - very encouraging, especially for a freezing cold night against wakefield.
*The performances of Danny craven, Marsh, Dean and Hep Cahill. Paddy ah van also derserves a mention for his tireless work running from acting half coming of our own line, made a lot of hard yards that way (as did Dean and Marsh). Cahill (A FORWARD) also burned the wakey threequarters over 60 meters for his try
*Overall we didnt look overhwhelmed (at least for around 65 minutes) which is cause for hope given that we had 4-5 'first choicers' unavailable, there was also a lot of enthusiasm on show until we visibly ran out of petrol towards the end.

Cons/potential causes of future concern;
two stand out for me, penalties/lack of discipline and generally looking disorganised.
Several times hanbury was caught in posession whilst visibly screaming for runners that never came, and clarke is never a half back, he continued to play from half back like a hooker, which didnt really come off. - however, this is fixed by the inclusion of watts with clarke reverting back to hooker. this would also fix many of the organisational issues, we need watts and hanbury doing the organising, not hanbury trying to do three jobs at once.
In the first half our short side defence was weak, we managed to remedy this before any real damage was done, but at the expense of open side defence (especially out wide) in the second half, this was highlighted painfully by wakey in the final twenty minutes, in short i think we looked weak defensively in the centres, wingers were often left alone and all to often our sliding defence didnt happen in the second half, and it was not for want of trying on the part of Dean, Marsh of Craven (all of whom i could see getting rather annoyed with the defensive shortcomings) all to often ah van and isa seemed to have a rush of blood and go flying out of the line or get drawn in without commiting to anything. Perhaps the inclusion of more experienced heads like briscoe and phelps will iron out these issues in the three quarters.
Now, none of these things are terrifying - i feel they can and will be remedied by our full first choice line up and work in training, after all i can see them, im sure the coaching staff can and it can all be sorted as the team grows together.
discipline is in some respects worrying and in others not so. some of it can just be put down to being off the pace at times, but that will come with match fitness. whats worrying is the stuff that has no real reasoning, as in lots of high tackles. (granted thaler got a bit high tackle happy in the second half, but still) I worry that moore in particular will kill us with that stuff, especially at this level.
that side of things is the only thing ive taken from last night that really worries me.

I think we will have a much better idea in a few weeks when the coaching staff have had time to identify and iron these issues and we have our strongest team out.
im ready for the hammerings but im optimistic. its not a terrible starting point and im sure improvements will come.

Re: My Verdict : Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:32 pm  

As a Widnes fan I don't think you will ever be able to rationalise yesterdays game. To much emotion involved, Your owner and Coach and many players had it written all over their faces. It was a very difficult night for you with so many hopes and expectation riding on one game. You will IMHO get a better idea of where you stand by game s 3-4.

For us it was much easier, we just had to show commitment and stick to our game plan - we were under pressure but not the pressure your lot was under.

Best of luck for the season.

Re: My Verdict : Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:18 pm  

Fitness and Stamina showed in the end and had it been down to our fitness for the last few seasons the boot would have been on the other foot but this Wakey side showed last night that now that aint a problem for them.I still think you will cause a few upsets this year (hell we did last year with a rag tag thrown together side) and I dont think you will finish wooden spoon.

Re: My Verdict : Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:18 pm  

As others have mentioned, your problems were fitness and discipline based, coupled with a few bods missing thus organisational issues too.
As the season progresses most of these should get ironed out with some good sound coaching, hard work and some luck.
Which brings me onto a question.
Is Dennis Betts going to be good enough, strong enough and smart enough to cut it at SL level and take you where Mr o'Connor ultimately wants you to be?
Not a knee jerk reaction to one game and one loss, just a gut feeling.
Without a doubt he was a great player, but as a coach he has still to prove himself at a totally different discipline.
Don't shout me down, I just wonder, SL is not necessarily the place for inexperience, especially of your owner expects a lot.
I'm going to make a comparison between Widnes and Middlesboro FC, huge backing and expectation and Brian Robson/Gareth Southgate. Both exceptional footballers and both comfortably good enough for championship football but not Premier league.
Innit trying to write Betts off, as we are short of good English coaches, but is he?
Over to you, please be gentle.

Re: My Verdict : Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:31 am  

kinleycat wrote:

As others have mentioned, your problems were fitness and discipline based, coupled with a few bods missing thus organisational issues too.
As the season progresses most of these should get ironed out with some good sound coaching, hard work and some luck.
Which brings me onto a question.
Is Dennis Betts going to be good enough, strong enough and smart enough to cut it at SL level and take you where Mr o'Connor ultimately wants you to be?
Not a knee jerk reaction to one game and one loss, just a gut feeling.
Without a doubt he was a great player, but as a coach he has still to prove himself at a totally different discipline.
Don't shout me down, I just wonder, SL is not necessarily the place for inexperience, especially of your owner expects a lot.
I'm going to make a comparison between Widnes and Middlesboro FC, huge backing and expectation and Brian Robson/Gareth Southgate. Both exceptional footballers and both comfortably good enough for championship football but not Premier league.
Innit trying to write Betts off, as we are short of good English coaches, but is he?
Over to you, please be gentle.

As you are an outsider looking in, i could'nt agree more. Top shout.

Re: My Verdict : Sun Feb 05, 2012 1:31 pm  

I'd agree with most posted above, I think kinleycat nails it. Jury is still out on Betts, although I'll nail my colours to the mast and say that I would NEVER have gone into SL with him in control. However, I've got to get behind him and judge him after more than one game, but if I get pushed for a view on that one game I'd say that all the problems that dogged us in the championship are still with us - ie, shocking discipline and a complete inability to turn pressure into points coupled with a general disorganised look to the team.

For me, he's had plenty of time to prove he could sort that out in the Championship and failed to do so. Last year he was comfortably out-coached by Millward, Powell and Harrison - I'd have taken Millward or Powell as coach before Betts anyday.

Verdict so far: Our season rests pretty much in the fitness of one man - Antony Watts. In the short time he's been on the pitch he proved he can unlock Wire and Saints and with him on Friday firing on all cylinders I think we'd have built a bigger lead at HT which we might have hung on to. Sadly, you can't go into a season with one creative player and expect him to do it all. His genius could cover up Bett's lack of coaching ability. If he spends more time in the stands, then I expect Betts first season in SL to be his last.

Re: My Verdict : Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:37 pm  

The Unknown Chemic wrote:

I'd agree with most posted above, I think kinleycat nails it. Jury is still out on Betts, although I'll nail my colours to the mast and say that I would NEVER have gone into SL with him in control. However, I've got to get behind him and judge him after more than one game, but if I get pushed for a view on that one game I'd say that all the problems that dogged us in the championship are still with us - ie, shocking discipline and a complete inability to turn pressure into points coupled with a general disorganised look to the team.

The jury will always be out on Betts because in fairness the Widnes fans havent taken to him and I dare say never will regardless of results. It just feels like one of those relationships in sport that will never take off from the fans point of view, possibly having seen him as the fall back guy after expecting such big name coaches to come in, fuelled it must be said by our own speculation.

SOC isnt daft though and when he says that it's about more than just this year I genuinely think he believes it and as such Betts will get the time to build more of his own squad than possibly what we have been able to construct straight off this year.

I was away for the game so had to settle for TV coverage so with no buildup to the game I was surprised by the lineup with a fair few regulars and our main source of creativity missing.

I actually thought all things considered we did okay. Defensively quite solid once we settled after the nervous opening although possibly naive at times for some easily conceded tries. I was surprised by the number of players who played having stepped up for the first time to SL level or returning after a long absence from having last played SL. In fairness they did okay and gave decent accounts of themselves. Allen and lil Haggy went well for me and even Picks, who I will never be a fan of made some decent yardage although it wouldnt be him without a penalty conceded.

Discipline fell away through the game as a result of the speed of the game I thought. Once Wakefield started to get a roll on and controlled the ruck more convincingly in the second half we struggled to cope with the speed and tried to niggle that bit more. Penalties bred more penalties as we chased the game. More games at this level will certainly help and the fast nature of the I-pitch means we are going to be exposed to fast paced games at home. Whether that improves the discipline remains to be seen but for large parts of that game with the exception of Cross, who plugged away selflessly, we where without any real long term SL experienced old head in the side.

We where clueless in attack but looking at it objectively we where pulling players here, there and everywhere. No Watts was and will be a massive blow, as he, hopefully on the back of the Saints friendly could be the gamebreaker for us. I could understand putting Clarke into the halves but then losing him in the second half forced another change in the halves and at this time Lloyd White has looked a little lost to date. That seems to be the story of our pre-season in not being able to have fielded our strongest set of halves for long periods due to niggles. Undoubtedly it cant have helped and probably too much expectation was heaped on Hanbury who was quite easily nullified by Wakefield who defended well as a team in fairness.

We will get better undoubtedly as we settle down into a more regular side and get some of our more experienced bodies back. Briscoe, Watts, Ben Davies & Paddy would I think have played although debating their impact at this stage is pointless. Add in Phelps, Finnigan (who has come through two U20's games now) and Sione Kite when they arrive and the squad seems to be a bit more bulked out that it was for the first game and in fairness the number of those stepping up to this level should reduce more in line with what we expected and their exposure can be controlled a bit more.

Anything off the bottom will be a success for this year. I am half expecting some massive shock wins but also expect to fall apart at times with the lack of real SL experience in the squad and suffer some drubbings.

I think we really need to get to the half way mark of the season and see what the settled side is like before we actually start making too many judgements.

Re: My Verdict : Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:38 pm  

I think we really need to get to the half way mark of the season and see what the settled side is like before we actually start making too many judgements.

Exactly!