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The Widnes Twitter Debate : Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:24 pm  
Will follow shortly..
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Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:31 pm  
I think you all need to look ahead to a different world that awaits you. O'Connor's not daft and there will be a different psyche around your club once October passes. What's happening now is totally irrelevant and none of you will be reflecting on any of this in 9 months time.
J20 
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This isn't a sleeping giant, it's a giant! Denis Betts Nov 2010

Twitter: @JoeyViking

Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:24 pm  
This is some essay ;)
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Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:31 pm  
Right here is how it has been explained to me and re-affirmed recently.
The coach is responsible for all first team responsibilities...
Betts is in complete control of training, team line up. Monday to Saturday (so to speak) he will be doing everything that SL coaches do. There is no interference from either TOC or PC in this area.
Most importantly he has the final say on who is signed. As it was explained to me. It would not be fair to sack the coach for a failing team that they were not responsible for putting together.
That isn’t to say that TOC and PC won’t be bringing players to DBs attention that they come across themselves. They both have contacts in the game so it would be naive to think that PC and TOC won’t be approached. For example PC’s recent trip out to Aus was to meet with agents and press the flesh so to speak. However if he does get a bite then that is communicated to DB who has the final yay or nay.
There is a clear strategy at the club and that is to try and build a young energetic squad. A clear marker has been thrown down with the recruitment of Mr Brewer and that is that we are going to try to be a super fit and super strong side. There is no restriction on age. We were apparently very seriously considering Sean Long for example. As I said if Pat Richards was available we would not hesitate on signing him up for regardless of being over 25. The hope is that unlike our last jaunt in SL we will have the basis of a squad in place and make minor changes to this squad to create stability rather than a major overhaul every twelve months.
I don’t know exactly how DB came to be appointed but I have heard that Kear for example wants the Cas job. And that Morgan and Noble are both eyeing opportunities overseas. We had the same problem that Salford had in trying to recruit an aussie coach in terms of not being able to compete with what NRL clubs were offering their coaches ad whereas Salford have plumped for a relative unknown we have instead opted for a young English coach.
Apologies, bit of a frenetic night.
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Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:32 pm  
Not as detailed as I would have liked but it's hard to concentrate with the tosh that my missus has on deafening decibels..
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On thread drift:
tb wrote:
Tough. Conversations develop. It's their nature.

Little Pepe went to nursery school one day wearing his Widnes hat. His teacher asked him why he was a Widnes fan. He said, “Because my parents are.” His teacher said, “That’s not good. What would you do if your parents were drug dealers and hookers?” He replied, “Well then I would be a Warrington fan.”

There's a Wooly over there, baggy kecks and feathered hair
with a 3 star jumper half way up his back, that’s a fecking Wooly back!

Oooh-to… Oooh-to-be… Oooh-to-be-a… WOOLY!

Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:21 am  
I hope that you’re right, but this doesn’t ring true with things I’ve heard. Even the club themselves are making an issue of the fact they are mainly concentrating on bringing in young players.

"One of the things we are actively seeking to do is sign quality young players and develop them further and enhance their potential within our environment. We're looking towards building something really strong at the Vikings and it's important that we get the foundations right first, so securing young British players such as Ben Davies will definitely stand us in good stead for both our immediate and long-term future."

"Once again, Lloyd falls into our remit of signing quality young British athletes.”

These are just two examples of hundreds of statements from the club, over the last few seasons, that have been pushing forward this notion.

It is clear what the intention actually is. When you look at the policy put in place by PC, of signing mainly up-and-coming players of the ages 25 and under, there is a clear continuation of this in players signed thus far. We do still bring in older players, but have failed to get the balance right and failed to bring in enough quality to compete with the best teams in this league. We have been distinctly average as a result.

Only 2 of the 18 players recruited or retained for Super League are over 25. I believe that several of those players also lack genuine Super League quality also. I don’t doubt that the club would buy Pat Richards, should he become available, but that is irrelevant. It is the over all balance of experience and quality that needs to be addressed. I’m not talking about recruiting a bunch of old men either.

The current policy has failed. If they can’t make it work in the Championship, I see no chance of it working in Super League. It is a policy that has been put in place by PC and is continuing under Betts. Therefore, I believe, that the coaches hands are tied to a policy, which was laid down 3 years ago. This is a policy that the club itself has announced as a stated aim. It wants to sign mostly young players and develop them. That is a very risky policy imo, and would require a truly gifted coach to pull off. Denis Betts is not that coach, but he is probably one of the few who would be willing to have his hands tied by such a policy. A coach, whom has a reputation to uphold, would never do so imo. This is why we have Denis Betts and why it is very doubtful that any proven coach would ever come here.

I would like to see the club bring in more proven quality. Yes, I know it’s difficult in our position, but some decent players have already been snapped up by other Super League clubs and our quota spots are being taken by some decidedly average players (not all) and some of the players we’ve kept on haven’t even looked that good in this league. Having a good percentage of players with potential is a good thing, but building a squad full of players which seem to have ‘potential’, by the law of averages alone is doomed to failure.

As Joey said, we haven’t finished recruitment yet. So, I will see where that brings us in a few months before I can truly understand the direction the club is going. Hopefully, by September, we’ll be able to announce some players who are already proven and experienced in the areas where we are looking very weak at the moment. But, from what I’m being told, barring one or two players, this may not happen.


I hope you are right and I am wrong, but a worrying pattern has developed over the last few years, which has led to failure and mediocrity. By the way we have recruited so far, this pattern doesn’t seem to be changing.
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Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:21 am  
Nothing you have posted there shows that they are restricting themselves to U25's. It simply states that this is the sort of player they are looking at. Nothing at all in there about refusing to consider players aged 26 and above.
I'll let you into a little secret...
We haven't actually been trying too hard (if at all) to implement this recruitment policy in the Championship.
Why?
The main reason being is that it is simply too difficult to try and build a squad with a cap of £300k that meets our criteria. Pretty much impossible really. Instead it has been more a case of who is available and more importantly who is willing to play for the club.
We are now in a position that
a) there are few SL players willing to drop into the Championship as they would need to move from a FT to a PT environment
b) the balance of Yorkshire sides to Lancashire sides does put us at a disadvantage. Who is willing to travel over three to four nights a week for a couple of hours training after having done a full day's work?
Only now with some room to breathe within the salary cap and being able to offer FT contracts can we fully put this strategy into place.
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Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:48 pm  
Also, the problem of raising and developing young players is that when they "arrive" at their pinnacle the "big four" come sniffing around - not to mention the lure of the NRL. That said, you are definately making the right moves - it's better to do it than not. Despite the fruitless Championship experience over the last three years you're definately on the horizon for something special. I'm looking forward to following Widnes in Super League - I haven't cared much about that league since Fax were in it. Obviously Fax will always be my first love but I'm really looking forward to the Viking invasion of Super League.
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Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:19 pm  
Thanks for the post Chris B but as someone who doesn't follow/use twitter what was the initial debate?
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Re: The Widnes Twitter Debate : Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:50 pm  
Paddy_88 wrote:
Thanks for the post Chris B but as someone who doesn't follow/use twitter what was the initial debate?

That the recuitment policy has been put together wrong and that the managerial structure at the club is putting off coaches from joining.
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