Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:56 am  

I think Crusaders are in trouble regardless of this pension issue. Given where Wrexham FC are in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't appear the Wrexham owner is in a position to fund the club with his own money. 5 out of Crusaders 8 home games they got less than 3,000. Crowds were as low as 1,122 in one game. I think its generally accepted that you have to be averaging 10,000 before you are in a position to be self funding and remain competitive. We ourselves were making £200,000-£300,000 losses per year in SL based on crowds between 6,500-7,000. Ideally for Crusaders, they would need at least another 3 of 4 years before you could say whether they are going to make it or not. Unfortunately for the Crusdaers, whilst they have such low crowds, who is going to fund them until the crowds MIGHT grow?

It appear the RFL have gave help to Quins and I don't think it would surprise anyone if they step in again to help the Crusaders.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Wed Nov 03, 2010 3:43 am  

HatedAndAdored wrote:

I have fond memories of being pilloried and called all the names under the sun for sharing that opinion back in 2008. Though I take no pleasure in saying 'I told you so'.

I think the point is we were prepared for Super League had we got the franchise that year. Now we aren't because all our plans are geared towards a 2012 place.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:36 am  

Alex J wrote:

I think the point is we were prepared for Super League had we got the franchise that year. Now we aren't because all our plans are geared towards a 2012 place.

Its too late on into a close season and we've pretty much as you say geared ourselves towards 2012 which is as far as I'm concerned the earliest anyone will be promoted to super league. Being chucked in now would ruin our preperations.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:01 am  

HatedAndAdored wrote:

I have fond memories of being pilloried and called all the names under the sun for sharing that opinion back in 2008. Though I take no pleasure in saying 'I told you so'.

I said the same things myself at the time, but so many people on the VT thought that they knew better. If you go and look back at the posts at that time I said that the Celtic Crusaders were clearly not ready for Super League and would be a disaster which would set back RL in Wales for a long time, if not for good.

In my opinion Sky are behind this. I think they only agreed to pay for a league expansion to 14 clubs provided the Celtic Crusaders were included. I also think that they insist that every penny in TV money goes to SL clubs only, in order to strengthen that competition for their own purposes.

If the Crusaders go bust and fold, the RFL should stick Toulouse in and let us wait until 2012. It may well be what Sky demand anyway.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:28 pm  

Pepe wrote:

In my opinion Sky are behind this. I think they only agreed to pay for a league expansion to 14 clubs provided the Celtic Crusaders were included. I also think that they insist that every penny in TV money goes to SL clubs only, in order to strengthen that competition for their own purposes.

If the Crusaders go bust and fold, the RFL should stick Toulouse in and let us wait until 2012. It may well be what Sky demand anyway.

I've never really got the Sky argument personally.

I just can't imagine what benefits Sky would get from the introduction of a club from a South Wales backwater that had averaged maybe a 1,000 or so spectators at best in seasons prior to its elevation.

Smacks more like the work of the RFL to me.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:36 am  

JHF wrote:

I've never really got the Sky argument personally.

I just can't imagine what benefits Sky would get from the introduction of a club from a South Wales backwater that had averaged maybe a 1,000 or so spectators at best in seasons prior to its elevation.

Smacks more like the work of the RFL to me.

Richard Lewis said in an interview that the TV companies would like to see a Welsh team in SL.

It’s all about advertising, the game having a national profile and demographics, &c. That’s what TV execs are interested in. So they give Dickie a few more bob to add a couple more clubs to SL – one heartland and one expansion – to soften the blow. This is why the RFL are so desperate to keep the Crusaders in SL. Sky may not be willing to fund a 14 club Super League without them.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:51 am  

TBF I can understand the SKY argument for Crusaders (south Wales mainly)! How many people in London have SKY just for RL? Hardly any if any (prob not that different in the NW). Though at least with Wales (regions) there is no top flight sport whatsoever so maybe they have a slight argument there.

Not saying it's right. Just where the SKY / RFL argument comes into it.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:41 pm  

J20 wrote:

TBF I can understand the SKY argument for Crusaders (south Wales mainly)! How many people in London have SKY just for RL? Hardly any if any (prob not that different in the NW). Though at least with Wales (regions) there is no top flight sport whatsoever so maybe they have a slight argument there.

Not saying it's right. Just where the SKY / RFL argument comes into it.

It’s not about how many people have Sky for RL in any given place, it’s about the demographic of the viewers that they regard as important, because that’s what makes them desirable to advertisers and hikes up the costs of the ads, and thus Sky make more money and RL attracts top brand sponsors.

It’s not even about how many people watch RL. If 300,000, working class, northerners watch RL every week, it wouldn’t be as attractive to advertisers as 100,000 viewers of a sport with national profile and a range of both middle class and working class people, and races, &c.

This is why RU (spit) receives more money from their Sky deal, despite not having a weekly audience as large as SL.

This is why a Welsh club and a club in London is just a start. When the RFL regard them as established, more heartland clubs will be making way for further expansion clubs – or that’s the master plan.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:58 pm  

Pepe wrote:

Richard Lewis said in an interview that the TV companies would like to see a Welsh team in SL.

It’s all about advertising, the game having a national profile and demographics, &c. That’s what TV execs are interested in. So they give Dickie a few more bob to add a couple more clubs to SL – one heartland and one expansion – to soften the blow. This is why the RFL are so desperate to keep the Crusaders in SL. Sky may not be willing to fund a 14 club Super League without them.

If Tricky Dicky told me today was Friday I'd check the calendar.

TBH I still find it difficult to believe Sky are calling the shots.

I seriously doubt they have concerns about RL lacking a national profile, they have plenty of other sport that does that.

Sky are interested in Sky, they sell advertising and subscriptions.

Rugby league is little more than a filler to them.

They pay a small price and get a reasonable return viewer wise.

They are not going to get a return on subscriptions viewer wise for RL in South Wales, I wouldn't be shocked if they've actually had more cancellations than new subscriptions with the way the RL handled the situation.

And seeing as the whole circus has now decamped 30 miles from the M62 the national profile is unlikely to be enhanced moving forward anyway.

As for the demographics, I can't believe branching into a small South Wales town as in the original plan would have made any differance.

If anything, the area is certainly no wealthier than the North of England, the viewing figures for games would probably be a lot less and the classification of viewer would probably be the same so I'd suspect the advertising would have to be cheaper.

To me it doesn't add up.

Reckon this is all the RFL's doing.

Re: SL 2011 for WIDNES? : Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:18 pm  

J20 wrote:

TBF I can understand the SKY argument for Crusaders (south Wales mainly)! How many people in London have SKY just for RL? Hardly any if any (prob not that different in the NW). Though at least with Wales (regions) there is no top flight sport whatsoever so maybe they have a slight argument there.

Not saying it's right. Just where the SKY / RFL argument comes into it.

Went to a meeting a few weeks ago where Ralph Rimmer when asked why the RFL persists in helping London when they have had 30yrs to get things sorted ."He stated that without the London team in Super League Sky would not be interested"