That the recuitment policy has been put together wrong and that the managerial structure at the club is putting off coaches from joining.
Cheers Chris.
Seems to be a massive reaction to our defeat on Wednesday, I didn't personally go so I can't make a judgement on that performance but there has been criticism of the team and the players we have already signed up for SL. I quite happy to give these players a chance in SL and judge them next season and Betts for the matter but I do get the impression, mainly from TIW*, that people are hoping that they fail just so they can say "we told you they weren't go enough last season."
I don't know but I think we have exciting times ahead as a club and we should be looking forward to it. Giving our full support and backing to the players and coach not getting on their backs before even this season has finished. I think players like, Allen, Huggarty, Leuluai are going to be squad players rather than in the 17 come the start of next season. Judge them at the end of the 2012 season.
*When I read TIW usually tend to do this:
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Little Pepe went to nursery school one day wearing his Widnes hat. His teacher asked him why he was a Widnes fan. He said, “Because my parents are.” His teacher said, “That’s not good. What would you do if your parents were drug dealers and hookers?” He replied, “Well then I would be a Warrington fan.”
There's a Wooly over there, baggy kecks and feathered hair with a 3 star jumper half way up his back, that’s a fecking Wooly back! Oooh-to… Oooh-to-be… Oooh-to-be-a… WOOLY!
Nothing you have posted there shows that they are restricting themselves to U25's. It simply states that this is the sort of player they are looking at. Nothing at all in there about refusing to consider players aged 26 and above.
I’d say the fact that only 2 from the 18 players recruited so far for SL are over 25 is pretty much cast iron, copper bottomed, water tight and irrefutable evidence to the contrary, Chris. That and the fact the club have repeatedly told us that this is what they are doing. I’m not too sure how you can possibly argue otherwise.
We now probably only have about 7 – 8 more players to come in to make up the squad. We will find out just how far the club are willing to go with this youth policy over the next few months. Hopefully, they’ll make sure that they are all established, tried and tested pro’s, no matter what date is on their birth certificate.
Chris B wrote:
I'll let you into a little secret... We haven't actually been trying too hard (if at all) to implement this recruitment policy in the Championship. Why? The main reason being is that it is simply too difficult to try and build a squad with a cap of £300k that meets our criteria. Pretty much impossible really. Instead it has been more a case of who is available and more importantly who is willing to play for the club. We are now in a position that a) there are few SL players willing to drop into the Championship as they would need to move from a FT to a PT environment b) the balance of Yorkshire sides to Lancashire sides does put us at a disadvantage. Who is willing to travel over three to four nights a week for a couple of hours training after having done a full day's work? Only now with some room to breathe within the salary cap and being able to offer FT contracts can we fully put this strategy into place.
Oh, we’ve been trying alright, Chris. But when it bites them on the booty, they’ve just run to SL clubs for dual riggers to pull them out of the poop. Believe me, despite everything you have put there, it is going to be a lot tougher to make the current recruitment policy work in SL. You need the tough, hard-bitten yard dog pro’s in there alongside the youth you’re bringing through. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t bring in players under 25, some of the 25 year olds we’ve brought in are good (Pat Ah Van for instance) all I’m arguing about is the balance we have between youth and experience. It is something that we have got wrong for years.
I think that any coach looking to come to this club would want the ability to recruit the best players he can, no matter of age, and without having to run his decisions before Paul Cullen or Terry O’Connor for approval, or have the possibility of either of those two overruling his decisions. Even if a good coach applied, I think any interview would quickly lead to the conclusion by both parties, that they are not the man for the job. Denis Betts is just happy to have the opportunity to get a job in top flight RL again. Therefore, he is willing to accept the situation.
Hey, maybe the club are right to do what they are doing. I’m no expert, but it just doesn’t seem the right way to go about building a top 8 club in a few years and more likely to see us rooted to the bottom of Super League for the next 3 years. In my opinion of course.
Little Pepe went to nursery school one day wearing his Widnes hat. His teacher asked him why he was a Widnes fan. He said, “Because my parents are.” His teacher said, “That’s not good. What would you do if your parents were drug dealers and hookers?” He replied, “Well then I would be a Warrington fan.”
There's a Wooly over there, baggy kecks and feathered hair with a 3 star jumper half way up his back, that’s a fecking Wooly back! Oooh-to… Oooh-to-be… Oooh-to-be-a… WOOLY!
No overreaction on my part, Paddy. I’ve been saying these things over a few years now. I never understood the reason why we recruited Denis Betts, and find the policy of recruiting squads largely made up of players 25 and under a mistaken philosophy. It hasn’t worked for the last 2 years And I can’t see it working next season either.
This deosn’t mean I support the club any less than you do either. I have been a season ticket holder for bloody years and have supported the club for 45 years. I don’t long for the old days either. I spend a fortune in the shop, never boo or abuse the players or coaches and try to get more people on board. Some of my opinions are also based on what I’ve been told by people I trust who know what is going on at the club.
To be fair to the club, they really aren’t hiding anything. Like I said, maybe their policy on recruitment is right and we have nothing to worry about.
No overreaction on my part, Paddy. I’ve been saying these things over a few years now. I never understood the reason why we recruited Denis Betts, and find the policy of recruiting squads largely made up of players 25 and under a mistaken philosophy. It hasn’t worked for the last 2 years And I can’t see it working next season either.
This deosn’t mean I support the club any less than you do either. I have been a season ticket holder for bloody years and have supported the club for 45 years. I don’t long for the old days either. I spend a fortune in the shop, never boo or abuse the players or coaches and try to get more people on board. Some of my opinions are also based on what I’ve been told by people I trust who know what is going on at the club.
To be fair to the club, they really aren’t hiding anything. Like I said, maybe their policy on recruitment is right and we have nothing to worry about.
Totally understand and not you at all, it's just the negativity and crap people come out with before our SL season starts. Yes we haven't been great this season, yes their are questions to be asked over our coach and players but I'm willing to give them a chance that they will have some success next season which we can then build upon for the next seasons.
I will start to worry if we don't sign anyone of good quality but there is plenty of time left for signings yet, I hope.
Little Pepe went to nursery school one day wearing his Widnes hat. His teacher asked him why he was a Widnes fan. He said, “Because my parents are.” His teacher said, “That’s not good. What would you do if your parents were drug dealers and hookers?” He replied, “Well then I would be a Warrington fan.”
There's a Wooly over there, baggy kecks and feathered hair with a 3 star jumper half way up his back, that’s a fecking Wooly back! Oooh-to… Oooh-to-be… Oooh-to-be-a… WOOLY!
Totally understand and not you at all, it's just the negativity and crap people come out with before our SL season starts. Yes we haven't been great this season, yes their are questions to be asked over our coach and players but I'm willing to give them a chance that they will have some success next season which we can then build upon for the next seasons.
I will start to worry if we don't sign anyone of good quality but there is plenty of time left for signings yet, I hope.
Some people are already calling for Betts to be sacked. Even I think that this would be pointless and probably expensive. The die is cast, as far as DB is concerned, and he should be allowed his chance. We'll know for certain this time next year and, if he is struggling, we will need to give him the boot then. hopefully, that won't be the case.
Some people are already calling for Betts to be sacked. Even I think that this would be pointless and probably expensive. The die is cast, as far as DB is concerned, and he should be allowed his chance. We'll know for certain this time next year and, if he is struggling, we will need to give him the boot then. hopefully, that won't be the case.
Sacking Betts would be absolutely pointless right now.
It might look like I am contradicting myself right now but have we missed a trick by appointing Betts as our coach for next year when Noble, Morgan, Kear are available? I will back Betts and support him but I can't help but feel that the other three coaches would give us a much more solid stable basis for SL?
Sacking Betts would be absolutely pointless right now.
It might look like I am contradicting myself right now but have we missed a trick by appointing Betts as our coach for next year when Noble, Morgan, Kear are available? I will back Betts and support him but I can't help but feel that the other three coaches would give us a much more solid stable basis for SL?
I would have chose any of those 3 over Betts.They are proven unlike Betts.I hope Betts does well,but I can not see it mate.
Sacking Betts would be absolutely pointless right now.
It might look like I am contradicting myself right now but have we missed a trick by appointing Betts as our coach for next year when Noble, Morgan, Kear are available? I will back Betts and support him but I can't help but feel that the other three coaches would give us a much more solid stable basis for SL?
I was absolutely gutted the day Betts was announced... no not gutted!!! I was fuming!!! On here, on Twitter and the TIW board. I was absolutely fuming. I've calmed down a bit since then and I'll give Betts a bit of time yet. For example, feedback I've had on Betts is that he is very technical in his approach. The struggle that he has at the moment is that the team train for relatively small amounts of time and they have to try to fit in fitness and conditioning sessions, ball work, tactics etc etc. The thoughts are that under full time training the players and coaching team will have more time to implement these things properly and we will actually reap the rewards. Now my question is that presumably Millward and Powell are actually working under the same conditions, but I'm willing to wait and see. For me he has 2012 to prove what he can do. I've also heard that the atmosphere in the playing camp has been first class. Probably as good as it has been for years with some of the players taking on senior roles in the dressing room etc... Not sure why this hasn't been reflected in performances in the pitch but that's what I've been told.
In terms of the other names mentioned, I am led to believe that the number of names that made themselves available wasn't the extensive list that some people were hoping. Pretty much everyone on the club's short-list in Australia ruled themselves out straightaway. Other names contacted the club but they were similar sort of names to Matt Parish at Salford hoping to 'make a name for themselves over here'. Back on this side of the world. Noble wasn't interested apparently holding out to see what opportunities there might be coming available at the end of the season abroad. The rumours are that part of the reason he left Cru was to take a job in Aus that fell through. Kear still contracted to Wakey but hoping for the Cas job. Morgan wasn't available at the time but is also believed to be thinking about going home. Harrison at Batley simply not interested.
I’d say the fact that only 2 from the 18 players recruited so far for SL are over 25 is pretty much cast iron, copper bottomed, water tight and irrefutable evidence to the contrary, Chris. That and the fact the club have repeatedly told us that this is what they are doing. I’m not too sure how you can possibly argue otherwise.
We now probably only have about 7 – 8 more players to come in to make up the squad. We will find out just how far the club are willing to go with this youth policy over the next few months. Hopefully, they’ll make sure that they are all established, tried and tested pro’s, no matter what date is on their birth certificate.
The very fact that we have signed two players over this age means that we are not ruling our players who are over 26 otherwise they would not be in the squad for next year? Secondly, the fact that we seriously considered making a move for Sean Long before another target presented itself and have offered contracts to Lockyer, Peacock, Graham, Bowen, Webb, Senior, Lauitiiti, Clarke and have supposedly made some initial queries over Gareth Thomas says that our policy is not to exclude decent players because of their age. There is no problem with the ambition of the club in trying to sign the right players, the execution is proving a little more difficult. As far as I have read or heard anywhere the club have not stated that they are excluding over 26 year olds.
Oh, we’ve been trying alright, Chris. But when it bites them on the booty, they’ve just run to SL clubs for dual riggers to pull them out of the poop. Believe me, despite everything you have put there, it is going to be a lot tougher to make the current recruitment policy work in SL. You need the tough, hard-bitten yard dog pro’s in there alongside the youth you’re bringing through. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t bring in players under 25, some of the 25 year olds we’ve brought in are good (Pat Ah Van for instance) all I’m arguing about is the balance we have between youth and experience. It is something that we have got wrong for years.
There is simply no way to cherry pick a squad with a salary cap of £300k to a strict strategy. Unfortunately we are in the position of trying to scrap with everyone else for the best available players and that pot is shrinking the whole time with two more SL teams in recent years and a lowering salary cap meaning that SL players cannot really be considered by Championship clubs without massively taking a chunk of the cap. The understanding has been that the squad will need to undergo quite some turnover for SL. The squad has not been put together for the last three years in large part with the attempt of taking that squad into SL.
I think that any coach looking to come to this club would want the ability to recruit the best players he can, no matter of age, and without having to run his decisions before Paul Cullen or Terry O’Connor for approval, or have the possibility of either of those two overruling his decisions. Even if a good coach applied, I think any interview would quickly lead to the conclusion by both parties, that they are not the man for the job. Denis Betts is just happy to have the opportunity to get a job in top flight RL again. Therefore, he is willing to accept the situation.
Hey, maybe the club are right to do what they are doing. I’m no expert, but it just doesn’t seem the right way to go about building a top 8 club in a few years and more likely to see us rooted to the bottom of Super League for the next 3 years. In my opinion of course.
I don't think either of us have even the slightest shred of evidence that this has happened or is likely to happen. As I've said elsewhere, it doesn't match with what I've been told about each person's role and I think is more driven out of the fact that you don't like what you believe the system to be.
Little Pepe went to nursery school one day wearing his Widnes hat. His teacher asked him why he was a Widnes fan. He said, “Because my parents are.” His teacher said, “That’s not good. What would you do if your parents were drug dealers and hookers?” He replied, “Well then I would be a Warrington fan.”
There's a Wooly over there, baggy kecks and feathered hair with a 3 star jumper half way up his back, that’s a fecking Wooly back! Oooh-to… Oooh-to-be… Oooh-to-be-a… WOOLY!
The very fact that we have signed two players over this age means that we are not ruling our players who are over 26 otherwise they would not be in the squad for next year? Secondly, the fact that we seriously considered making a move for Sean Long before another target presented itself and have offered contracts to Lockyer, Peacock, Graham, Bowen, Webb, Senior, Lauitiiti, Clarke and have supposedly made some initial queries over Gareth Thomas says that our policy is not to exclude decent players because of their age.
I have never stated that the club will only sign players under 25. You are confused and making up your own story here, Chris. I, as well as the club, have merely stated that recruitment of players will be mostly made up of up-and-coming players – which it seems – will be made up of players of the ages 25 and under. Hence, only 2 of the18 players signed are over 25. It is following a pattern laid down 3 years ago by Paul Cullen and a direct stated aim by the club. My gripe is not that we won't sign players over the age of 25, but that we haven't been getting the balance right. As a result, recruitment has been poor which is reflected by the mediocre teams which have produced far too many poor performances over the last few seasons. The season we won the NRC was only achieved by using 4 loan players from SL.
Chris B wrote:
There is no problem with the ambition of the club in trying to sign the right players, the execution is proving a little more difficult. As far as I have read or heard anywhere the club have not stated that they are excluding over 26 year olds.
No you’re right, they haven’t, and I never said that they had. But the club have stated the kind of player that they are after and recruitment so far has shown their intent. I’m not saying that they won’t sign anther player over 25, but the bulk of the squad will not be over 25. This hasn’t worked in the Championship and it won’t work in Super League.
Chris B wrote:
There is simply no way to cherry pick a squad with a salary cap of £300k to a strict strategy. Unfortunately we are in the position of trying to scrap with everyone else for the best available players and that pot is shrinking the whole time with two more SL teams in recent years and a lowering salary cap meaning that SL players cannot really be considered by Championship clubs without massively taking a chunk of the cap. The understanding has been that the squad will need to undergo quite some turnover for SL. The squad has not been put together for the last three years in large part with the attempt of taking that squad into SL.
Yet they have already signed 11 players from this years squad alongside two former dual reg players. These are players, which have played first team games including friendly games this season. Then there are those players in the current squad that may yet earn a SL contract. This doesn’t seem to back up your claim, Chris. Forget all this £300k salary cap excuse. Other clubs have built damned fine teams in this league (better than ours) and it will be the same in SL. If we try to take a relatively inexperienced team into SL that lacks quality and experience, in the hope that in 2 years they’ll all be world beaters they are going to love up big time.
Chris B wrote:
I don't think either of us have even the slightest shred of evidence that this has happened or is likely to happen. As I've said elsewhere, it doesn't match with what I've been told about each person's role and I think is more driven out of the fact that you don't like what you believe the system to be.
I would suggest that what is happening, before our very eyes, is quite enough to draw conclusions. The way they have recruited over the last few years, the statements made by the club about concentrating their recruitment on ‘young British talent’ and the fact that this policy seems to be being taken even further by only recruiting 2 players out of 18 over the age of 25 seems pretty conclusive to me. All you need to know is right before you.
I really have my fingers crossed now that the next 7 signings are more ambitious than they have been up to now. It wouldn’t be so bad if we had a decent coach, but we have a yes man, who is desperate to get back in the big time after 5 years out of the game, and it shows.
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