Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:32 pm  

deeHell wrote:

Obviously I'm talking about access to SL in the present system. For the record that promotion didn't really work out for in the long run. Your club just wasn't resilient enough to compete in SL for more than a few seasons.

You've got a point but a little harsh considering that was the only year 2 teams have ever been relegated from Super League, and we had over double the points Leigh had who finished bottom. However I don't think anyone would argue that we are a much stronger club than back then, infact off the field have we ever been stronger?

Plus, this point is a million miles away from your original point. We didn't compete for that year and we rate ourselves above Barrow. Ok, both opinions though not fact. Aren't you disregarding Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh and Toulouse in this debate? We OBVIOUSLY want to get to SL, and as a club are doing everything they can to get there, I don't think you can knock that ambition, what a few fans think is irrelevant.

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:46 pm  

SRC wrote:

Firstly, this topic was started by a Wakefield fan. Once again people go into 'Barrow is a sh!te club with a dodgy chairman etc etc' routine as a kneejerk reaction which is a shame.

None of this has happened on this thread, and we know that Barrow are not a sh!te club. Most don’t think that Barrow are ready for SL, but that isn’t the same as calling them sh!te.

SRC wrote:

Regarding our stadium, as has been said many, many times before, the club and fans of Barrow RL know far better than anyone that Craven Park needs to be brought up to scratch (we have to visit it every couple of weeks after all!). However, saying it needs £10-£15M spending on it is clearly ridiculous. The Halliwell Jones only cost £6.5M and that was a brand new site and stadium. The major areas to concentrate on are 1,000 more seats to reach SL requirements, new floodlights (which are imminent I believe), a new-build clubhouse/media centre and terracing re-modelling. The development fund already has more than enough finance to fund new toilets, electronic scoreboard and other smaller projects.

I think £3M would be more than enough (based upon other such developments at football grounds over the past few years). Still a lot of money, but certainly not £15M and certainly not an impossible target based considering the grants/loans that are available for community-based sports projects. Work has been ongoing for almost 2 years in securing funding forthe stadium improvements and a SL-esque infrastructure, so although Barrow's progress has come as a shock to most, it hasn't to those inside the club.

Even £3M is a lot of money to raise within 2 years. I’m not sure it would be enough to bring the whole of Craven Park up to SL standard. Barrow are certainly improving fast, but they have far too much catching up to do, and I cannot see them being in a position to out-bid Widnes in 2012. It’s not just the stadium they are behind on.

SRC wrote:

Regarding timescales, when Dens Park (home of Dundee FC) required improvement, Barr Stadium Construction Ltd were charged with the task of removing the existing concrete terraces and the construction of two, 3,000 seater stands. The stands were built in a record time of 82 days for the start of the next Scottish Premier League season.

Do Barrow have the money now and an actual start date for the work to be carried out?

The build at Dens Park may not be the same as the build required by Craven Park. As things stand, I see little chance of Craven Park being SL standard by 2012.

SRC wrote:

I know that most other fans are completely writing us off, which I know suits the Barrow club fine. The RFL know how we have progressed and are in regular contact for updates. After all, we would be seen as an 'expansion club' to Super League, but without many of the risks associated to Crusaders etc.

Anyway, who's to say that only 1 new team will enter SL in 2012 ??

A French club will get the nod, rightly or wrongly, over Barrow. Barrow are not really an expansion club anyway. Yes, a Cumbrian club in SL would be a great thing for the game up there, and even for RL as a whole, but it is on slightly dodgy ground calling it expansion imo.

If the RFL include two clubs from the Championship, then two clubs would have to be dropped from SL. The only way this would happen is if the Crusaders get in trouble and fail. I think this could leave 2 spaces, provided they also drop another club. It would, almost certainly, just mean that one heartland club and an expansion club will be chosen, just like last time. I think a French club will get the nod for the expansion place and Barrow will be competing with Widnes, Halifax and Fev for the heartland spot. I just cannot see Widnes not getting a licence against any heartland club in 2012. Toulouse or Stade Francais are another matter though.

None of this is because I think Barrow are sh!te. I don’t think that at all.

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:55 pm  

SRC wrote:

Firstly, this topic was started by a Wakefield fan. Once again people go into 'Barrow is a sh!te club with a dodgy chairman etc etc' routine as a kneejerk reaction which is a shame.

Regarding our stadium, as has been said many, many times before, the club and fans of Barrow RL know far better than anyone that Craven Park needs to be brought up to scratch (we have to visit it every couple of weeks after all!). However, saying it needs £10-£15M spending on it is clearly ridiculous. The Halliwell Jones only cost £6.5M and that was a brand new site and stadium. The major areas to concentrate on are 1,000 more seats to reach SL requirements, new floodlights (which are imminent I believe), a new-build clubhouse/media centre and terracing re-modelling. The development fund already has more than enough finance to fund new toilets, electronic scoreboard and other smaller projects.

I think £3M would be more than enough (based upon other such developments at football grounds over the past few years). Still a lot of money, but certainly not £15M and certainly not an impossible target based considering the grants/loans that are available for community-based sports projects. Work has been ongoing for almost 2 years in securing funding forthe stadium improvements and a SL-esque infrastructure, so although Barrow's progress has come as a shock to most, it hasn't to those inside the club.

Regarding timescales, when Dens Park (home of Dundee FC) required improvement, Barr Stadium Construction Ltd were charged with the task of removing the existing concrete terraces and the construction of two, 3,000 seater stands. The stands were built in a record time of 82 days for the start of the next Scottish Premier League season.

I know that most other fans are completely writing us off, which I know suits the Barrow club fine. The RFL know how we have progressed and are in regular contact for updates. After all, we would be seen as an 'expansion club' to Super League, but without many of the risks associated to Crusaders etc.

Anyway, who's to say that only 1 new team will enter SL in 2012 ??

I am in no way decrying your progress , I have pointed out how well you have done on several other threads , you quote the Hj at 6.5 million , I honestly dont know , the stadium at the LSV came out at 18 million , you suggest grants are available for ' community projects ' and yes the Leigh project tapped into these , but yours is a private stadium , are the football going to share with you , as the biggest grants are through the football foundations , even the recent re furbishment of the stadium at the shay cost as much as you are suggesting , even with the basic structure in place , to bring in the type of investment to compete in SL [ to just get in will not be enough , I as a Leigh fan know that only too well , if you ended up stuck at the bottom for more than one season your fan base would be decimated ] you would need a stadium similar to Leighs , or at least as good as the Shay , a lot more than 3 .5 million , and not something that could be built in the time scale you suggest happened in Dundee .

As I said you have come a long way in a short space of time , unfortunatley I think even if you could find the money , time will be against you , so that then begs the questions , 1 will the RFL stick to a policy of admitting a Championship side into SL every 3 years , and will your management be willing to wait till then potentially without a cast iron promise ?

All the best

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:57 pm  

Yet another fan coming on here telling us that we have no right to want to better ourselves.

I have to ask you Deehell, how will you feel when you are replaced by someone with not even a fraction of your history or current strength? Will you be happy for YOUR club to lose out "for the good of the game" as many others in super league say they would? Because we all know thats a crock of B.S. and anyone who fails to acknowledge this is a complete liar.

This being the case, what is the problem with us wanting to be part of the haves in the game. It's not much fun being one of the put upons in this corrupt sport. We're not assuming we belong anywhere, our club and town has put the hard work in. We didn't get the super league cash that your club did which has consistently managed to put clubs like yours at a severe advantage and yet we still managed to get the stadium and our fans are still flocking to the club and we're still producing players. You all took Murdoch's cash and Wakefield and others did not make hay whilst the sun shines, we deserve a chance to prove we are better than that and ultimately failing someone goes out of business you will get what is coming to you.

Hope you don't mind a playing field as uneven as a ski slope, a cup competition that ebbs away any interest early on in the season and caps which severely limit your ability to outperform average set ups in a small league with two spots of relegation. When they promote South Wales Scorpions and Glasgow Nutters I will promise not to look at the bigger picture as to why they are finishing ahead of you and simply tell you to "stop whingeing" and I will definitely call your club "under performing". I've had plenty of experience in this so I know all the right things to say to someone worried about the future of their club. I think the drill is to be ultra patronising, ignorant and happy about it whilst my club is one of the chosen even to the detriment of the game as a whole. Can't wait.

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:58 pm  

SRC wrote: Firstly, this topic was started by a Wakefield fan. Once again people go into 'Barrow is a sh!te club with a dodgy chairman etc etc' routine as a kneejerk reaction which is a shame. Regarding our stadium, as has been said many, many times before, the club and fans of Barrow RL know far better than anyone that Craven Park needs to be brought up to scratch (we have to visit it every couple of weeks after all!). However, saying it needs £10-£15M spending on it is clearly ridiculous. The Halliwell Jones only cost £6.5M and that was a brand new site and stadium. The major areas to concentrate on are 1,000 more seats to reach SL requirements, new floodlights (which are imminent I believe), a new-build clubhouse/media centre and terracing re-modelling. The development fund already has more than enough finance to fund new toilets, electronic scoreboard and other smaller projects. I think £3M would be more than enough (based upon other such developments at football grounds over the past few years). Still a lot of money, but certainly not £15M and certainly not an impossible target based considering the grants/loans that are available for community-based sports projects. Work has been ongoing for almost 2 years in securing funding forthe stadium improvements and a SL-esque infrastructure, so although Barrow's progress has come as a shock to most, it hasn't to those inside the club. Regarding timescales, when Dens Park (home of Dundee FC) required improvement, Barr Stadium Construction Ltd were charged with the task of removing the existing concrete terraces and the construction of two, 3,000 seater stands. The stands were built in a record time of 82 days for the start of the next Scottish Premier League season. I know that most other fans are completely writing us off, which I know suits the Barrow club fine. The RFL know how we have progressed and are in regular contact for updates. After all, we would be seen as an 'expansion club' to Super League, but without many of the risks associated to Crusaders etc. Anyway, who's to say that only 1 new team will enter SL in 2012 ?? Apparently it cost £12m. Source: http://www.warringtonwolves.org/Halliwell.ink

SRC wrote: Firstly, this topic was started by a Wakefield fan. Once again people go into 'Barrow is a sh!te club with a dodgy chairman etc etc' routine as a kneejerk reaction which is a shame. Regarding our stadium, as has been said many, many times before, the club and fans of Barrow RL know far better than anyone that Craven Park needs to be brought up to scratch (we have to visit it every couple of weeks after all!). However, saying it needs £10-£15M spending on it is clearly ridiculous. The Halliwell Jones only cost £6.5M and that was a brand new site and stadium. The major areas to concentrate on are 1,000 more seats to reach SL requirements, new floodlights (which are imminent I believe), a new-build clubhouse/media centre and terracing re-modelling. The development fund already has more than enough finance to fund new toilets, electronic scoreboard and other smaller projects. I think £3M would be more than enough (based upon other such developments at football grounds over the past few years). Still a lot of money, but certainly not £15M and certainly not an impossible target based considering the grants/loans that are available for community-based sports projects. Work has been ongoing for almost 2 years in securing funding forthe stadium improvements and a SL-esque infrastructure, so although Barrow's progress has come as a shock to most, it hasn't to those inside the club. Regarding timescales, when Dens Park (home of Dundee FC) required improvement, Barr Stadium Construction Ltd were charged with the task of removing the existing concrete terraces and the construction of two, 3,000 seater stands. The stands were built in a record time of 82 days for the start of the next Scottish Premier League season. I know that most other fans are completely writing us off, which I know suits the Barrow club fine. The RFL know how we have progressed and are in regular contact for updates. After all, we would be seen as an 'expansion club' to Super League, but without many of the risks associated to Crusaders etc. Anyway, who's to say that only 1 new team will enter SL in 2012 ?? Apparently it cost £12m. Source: http://www.warringtonwolves.org/Halliwell.ink

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:59 pm  

Starbug wrote:

I am in no way decrying your progress , I have pointed out how well you have done on several other threads , you quote the Hj at 6.5 million , I honestly dont know , the stadium at the LSV came out at 18 million , you suggest grants are available for ' community projects ' and yes the Leigh project tapped into these , but yours is a private stadium , are the football going to share with you , as the biggest grants are through the football foundations , even the recent re furbishment of the stadium at the shay cost as much as you are suggesting , even with the basic structure in place , to bring in the type of investment to compete in SL [ to just get in will not be enough , I as a Leigh fan know that only too well , if you ended up stuck at the bottom for more than one season your fan base would be decimated ] you would need a stadium similar to Leighs , or at least as good as the Shay , a lot more than 3 .5 million , and not something that could be built in the time scale you suggest happened in Dundee .

As I said you have come a long way in a short space of time , unfortunatley I think even if you could find the money , time will be against you , so that then begs the questions , 1 will the RFL stick to a policy of admitting a Championship side into SL every 3 years , and will your management be willing to wait till then potentially without a cast iron promise ?

All the best

I could only see ,,,,,,,,,, when reading that then, it put me right off.

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:02 pm  

deeHell wrote:

The point I was making was against the concept of the franchise system. Many Widnes fans complained about the drawbridge being pulled up at the time. I entirely agree it was wrong and a complete farce. The game should be decided on the pitch, it is after all a competition. After hearing the ramblings of your MP I find it annoying that this guy who represents you seems to think that Widnes have automatically got the right to enter in place off Crusaders.

You didn’t mention anything about our MP, just our fans moaning. So now you’ve changed your tune.

deeHell wrote:

The facts is P/R is bad for Widnes as they seem totally incapable of winning the Championship GF. That I can't see likely to happen in the near future with an inept coach like Cullen in charge.

You’re just not getting the fact that we no longer have P&R are you?

A licence system is a very different situation, and clubs are chosen over a wide range of criteria. Forget promoting clubs solely on on-the-field performance- that is no longer relevant.

deeHell wrote:

The fact is if Widnes where to make it in SL via the franchise system it would depend on the following clubs not making progress on new grounds, Wakey, Cas and Salford. Cas and Salford

Not necessarily. However, all those clubs licence bids relied totally on a pack of lies about building new stadiums.

deeHell wrote:

I can't answer for but our project is looking very rosy indeed. The money already invested is very large, the people behind it are very influential. The progress has a lot of momentum. I know it's hard to take, and it removes one of the aces from you sleeve but you will just have to accept it

Yes, we’ve heard all that cr@p before haven’t we?

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:16 pm  

I think this is only the start of of the criticism that we are going to be in for. Whilst I don't think it will get to Celtic levels, IMO fans of SL clubs under threat like Wakefield, Cas and Salford and also rival Championship clubs like Halifax and Barrow will all be aiming pot shots at our club.

We should just let most of it ride over our heads, at the end of the day we're in pole position to take a SL spot in 2012 and no amount of whinging from fans of other clubs will change anything.

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:34 pm  

I know fook all about club finances but surely taking a licence off a current SL club that is saddled with at least a couple of million £s debt (I'm not referring to any particular club) will force that club into administration/liquidation. I think by it's very nature any club thrown out of SL will not have a rich benefactor and I fail to see how any club could service such large debts with no central funding from SKY.

Re: Widnes before Barrow? : Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:47 pm  

I wouldn't take any offence to what 'kinell' or whatever he's called has spouted. As V4E has said, we may be in for a lot of it.

Take it as a compliment (a backhanded one maybe) but make no mistake, these are very twitchy times for some clubs and fans. We may or may not get a spot in 2012 but we are right up there and knocking hard and our rivals know it.

Bring it on .