Re: The future of Widnes Vikings : Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:38 am  

Pepe wrote:

If this were not the case, then no Championship club would ever be in a position to get a licence.

So, to try and judge CC/SL clubs on a purely like for like basis would be grossly unfair and not signify the likely potential of how any CC club would actually perform in SL. This would be just as likely, if not more so, to see legal action taken against the RFL imo.

Sorry, I cannot agree with this. What you have just said is that it is justifiable to weaken the elite competition for the sake of change. If you don't match up to the current clubs in SL against the criteria, you don't deserve to be in the SL. There can be no debate on the fact that only the most successful/eligible clubs should be in the elite competition.

Nor would there be any case for legal action as all clubs would be treated the same, I would suggest that you are in support of the current discriminatory practice solely for the reason it suit Widnes, remember how it felt when it was Crusaders benefitting from such behaviour.

Pepe wrote:

Staggering the announcement makes perfect sense. Any Championship club given a licence will need plenty of time to build a competitive side. This will both help that club and strengthen the competitiveness of Super League. Having a new club left with a few scraps to pick up, in order to build a team, and will just be whipping boys sat at the bottom of the table, with little hope for that season. So, giving the advanced notice makes perfect sense.

Still don't see why you need more time than you did under P & R. Perhaps the Championship should operate a franchise system following that logic?

What the points above have highlighted is however is that the sport is being governed poorly (nothing like stating the obvious ). Totally agree with the point you make that the gap between the SL and Champs is growing, much as it has with Premiership football, through the redirection of the sports funds into the top flight. Therefore for the sport remain viable in the long term the governing body should be addressing this gap. Reviewing the distribution of central funding and PR for competitions etc would provide more competitive Chamionship leagues, retain the sports fan base and provide a stable foundation for the oh so precious Super League. And address possibility of a split from the SL/RFL by the Champ clubs, as they and the fans become increasingly disillusioned with the RFL and its governance.

Pepe wrote:

Oh, and the whole process is unethical, and this has little to do with when clubs find out their fate.

True, but it looks like its here to stay. The RFL are obviously secure in the knowledge that they can do as they please.

Re: The future of Widnes Vikings : Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:09 am  

I see Millward mentioned on GMR last night that Leigh will be alright for attendances because of the crowd size they will get on Saturday....

Very good coach and a brilliant prophet. Or does he know something we don't? He also mentioned that they will be alright for turnover because of the partnership they have with LSV... what partnership is that? They give the LSV money and play in that stadium?

Re: The future of Widnes Vikings : Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:29 am  

Off! Number Seven wrote:

Thing is Chris you cannot enforce a waiver on a point of law, for example companies cannot refuse to employ you unless you sign a waiver stating you agree not to sue them for any transgression on their behalf.

Business law in the UK is extremely clear an the requirement for fairness in all tender/selection processes. If a lawyer can find precedent or believes it can be set in this case the RFL could be in trouble.

I'm afraid it is their competition and they can set the rules by which clubs are allowed to enter. If a club signs an agreement that they will abide by the final decision of the RFL then the club really doesn't have a leg to stand on. If the club doesn't want to participate then they don't have to take part. The RFL are not idiots... idiots would have been thrown out long ago for some of the stunts these guys pull, the franchise stuff is a murky vague world. Just look at the handling of CC when they went bust... 'no problems just start up a new club up north and take over their licence!!!'

I would have thought that your club as the most likely i.e. dead certs to receive a franchise would be the most keen to see a transparent decision making process. How tiring do you think it will get if this board is flooded with disgruntled fans of the relegated club stating how you never had to compete with their criteria performance.

I would be quite happy in the position we are in if the RFL did away with franchising and simply said the winner of the GF goes up and P&R is back on. What a season we could look forward to next year if that was the case?

The staggered decision/announcement is a disaster waiting to happen. I cannot understand why the "promoted" club needs longer under the franchise system than under regular P&R, the "relegated" club and its players are not given that grace to put their affairs in order. All I can see it doing is encouraging cost cutting next season when you get the nod. If it is a staggered decision it demonstrates the unfair nature of the process and makes a mockery of the RFL and the sport.

I quite disagree with this. It makes common sense to me. I advocated this taking place when P&R was in situ. The club going up needs all the help it can get in becoming competitive in year one otherwise we won't attract new fans. Going from a competition where most other clubs are operating on £300k to one in which most are operating on about £1.1m -1.2m means that lower league club should be in a position to strengthen it's side. Plus there are all the other aspects like marketing.. driving up ticket sales and revenue everything CC didn't do last time.

As for the club coming down... unfortunately I suspect they will be looked after. I don't expect they will be asked to drop from a £1.2m salary cap to £300k in their first season.

Re: The future of Widnes Vikings : Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:43 am  

Chris B wrote:

I see Millward mentioned on GMR last night that Leigh will be alright for attendances because of the crowd size they will get on Saturday....

Very good coach and a brilliant prophet. Or does he know something we don't? He also mentioned that they will be alright for turnover because of the partnership they have with LSV... what partnership is that? They give the LSV money and play in that stadium?

I think the 'partnership' also involves a share of any profits from the whole LSV site given to the 'partners'. Maybe they have charged Blackburn Rovers a fortune for allowing their reserves to play there

Re: The future of Widnes Vikings : Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:15 pm  

Off! Number Seven wrote:

What you have just said is that it is justifiable to weaken the elite competition for the sake of change.

No it doesn’t weaken SL at all. If the CC club is likely to be as strong, if not even stronger than the SL club, then how does that weaken the competition?

In your own words:

Off! Number Seven wrote:

the gap between the SL and Champs is growing

This gives any SL club a massive, and unfair, advantage during the licence process. You simply cannot compare like for like in order to judge how the Championship club will compare. Your way would condemn some excellent clubs to the lower league forever – and unjustly so.

Off! Number Seven wrote:

If you don't match up to the current clubs in SL against the criteria, you don't deserve to be in the SL

So how can a Championship ever hope to equal a SL club on turnover, given the extra sponsorship money, higher attendances and £1.4 Million they will all get?

How are they going to be able to compete on attendances, given that people are starting to vote with their feet in the Championship, because of the licence system and the vastly greater away support you get in SL?

How can a Co-op Championship club compete with player strength, compared to a SL club, when the CC club plays in the lower division with a £300,000k limit compared to a club playing in SL with a £1.6Million cap?

How can a CC club compete on youth development when most clubs in this league cannot afford to run academies and, we now hear, aren’t even allowed to run scholarship teams?

Off! Number Seven wrote:

Nor would there be any case for legal action as all clubs would be treated the same

Because comparing clubs from both of these very different leagues on a like for like basis, does not show what the CC club is capable of and stacks the odds too far in the favour of SL clubs, making it impossible for any Championship club to gain access to SL. This effectively would make Super League a cartel, which are illegal in this country. Thus a restraint of trade lawsuit would stand a very good chance of success imo.

Off! Number Seven wrote:

, I would suggest that you are in support of the current discriminatory practice solely for the reason it suit Widnes

It makes no difference to a Widnes fan. Unless the RFL shaft us again, it looks like we are in, regardless of this little discussion. However, I do feel that the lower leagues are being shat on and cast adrift unfairly and, judging CC/SL clubs on a like for like basis would be another kick in the teeth and affect every CC club from 2012, if the RFL chose to go down that route. Therefore your point is totally moot.

Off! Number Seven wrote:

remember how it felt when it was Crusaders benefitting from such behaviour.

Could you please explain this?

Off! Number Seven wrote:

Still don't see why you need more time than you did under P & R

P&R did suffer from having far too little time to build a squad. This imo is why so many newly promoted sides suffered. Just ask the Leigh fans.

Off! Number Seven wrote:

True, but it looks like its here to stay. The RFL are obviously secure in the knowledge that they can do as they please

And as such, handing them the power to make SL a closed shop won’t help. To follow your logic, this would be the last nail in the coffin for the lower leagues.

Re: The future of Widnes Vikings : Fri Aug 13, 2010 3:23 pm  

Chris B wrote:

I see Millward mentioned on GMR last night that Leigh will be alright for attendances because of the crowd size they will get on Saturday....

Very good coach and a brilliant prophet. Or does he know something we don't? He also mentioned that they will be alright for turnover because of the partnership they have with LSV... what partnership is that? They give the LSV money and play in that stadium?

As Demon says Leigh RLFC are partners in LSV and get a share of the income so who knows we may hit the turnover.

Maybe Ian Nostradamus Millward knows what gate we will be getting, the flaw in the criteria is that we could in theory give away 5000 free tickets or however many we need to get the 2500 average and that would qualify

now if only we had a GF appearance or won the NRC

Re: The future of Widnes Vikings : Fri Aug 13, 2010 9:43 pm  

DemonUK wrote:

I think the 'partnership' also involves a share of any profits from the whole LSV site given to the 'partners'. Maybe they have charged Blackburn Rovers a fortune for allowing their reserves to play there

Evening Derek, found out today that the LSV are looking to hugely reduce costs and that every LSV employee has had to re-apply for their own jobs, so I can't see us getting a huge dividend from them somehow!