Not defensive, just trying to point out how silly your post was. EVERY player has flaws and if you discard the skills that make most great players stand out (like Rob's ability to find a gab and break a game) then they end up not looking so great... Hardaker's passing ability will improve but regardless he's still the best in SL and despite what the Aussie fan boys think he would definitely hold his own in the NRL.

No I didn't. You missed his point and are now trying to put words into his mouth.



Sutcliffe's been back for 3 games Juan, give him a break FFS. I thought he did OK on Sunday, showed some glimpses. He'll get there over the coming weeks. Were you writing Stevie Ward off after 3 weeks back?



Lilley is in no way ready for SL but he looks like he's going to be very special indeed.

There is absolutely no reason we can not have a SOO if we get the comp right first. Increasing the cap is an absolute no brainer where we currently are. I don't think under any means we can go like the Aussies, as that is just not affordable, but a 2 million cap now along with the marquee player rule would enhance our competition massively going forward.



Once teams are spending this and on the right quality, then you look at some form of SOO. Remember the kiwis are still quality players and they don't do SOO. I would be more keen in attracting back our English star players who also don't play SOO.



We need first and foremost to get rid of magic weekend, and have a proper marketed nines competition like they do in Australia. It would generate so much more publicity than Magic weekend, and much more fun.



The money situation that you say it isn't all about, to a degree is correct, but because of the low cap, it reduces the motivation for players to stay in our game, and or stay in our competition.

In no way am I writing off Sutty who I regard as a good player with great potential and he deserves time to overcome his serious injury. I do though have reservations as to his future as a 6 which are not based on 3 games back! It is based on all his games so far at SL level. I have also said however that youngsters have to be given time to develop and this applies to Sutty too and I am happy that he continues his run in the first team.



I have to disagree with you regarding Lilley who I think is ready for SL and who I think would look even better playing alongside Mags.

I just don't see what difference an extra £200k will really make though I'm not particularly against a small increase like that. Though we always have to remember that as we'd probably only have around 7 or 8 teams able to spend that extra money is how that actually effects the spending. Does it go on higher quality players from the NRL or does it go on retaining current players who may have moved to another club in SL. Also we have to think, will that extra £200k to be taken from other operations in the clubs such as backroom staff, management, marketing etc?

I agree to a point on the SOO, I don't think it would ever be as big as SOO is in Australia though. But the principle of an intense, 3-game rep series I think is achievable.



As for the 9's, nah. It's never ever going to get any meaningful coverage or profile and the Magic Weekend has potential for being a useful expansion tool, it also got roughly twice as many people attending as the NRL nines did.

Personally I think we should use the 9's concept as an international comp like the 7's to help develop other nations rather than as a domestic club comp.

I certainly hope so, but have seen nothing to convince me he is anywhere near. I think it will go something like Leeds->Wakefield->Batley.

Of course it was!! it was simply a hissy fit on your behalf - perhaps if your weren't so precious about all things Rhinos it might do you some good!!

I'd have said, more like Leeds->Wakefield->Featherstone. Had the chance to give a SL team the lead for the first and (as it transpired) only time and fluffed that too. That seemed to be missed by many on here which is a little surprising after the spray Hardaker received after Warrington, coupled with the loss of a point or even two by not deferring the duty to Lilley.



Halves, IMO, need to offer a running threat otherwise defenders can just slide and pick off the runners, thus far Lilley's threat has only come from little mid field chip kicks and I imagine he'll soon be discouraged from using them.

Thurston missed his first kick from a similar position to Lilley. Reckon he'll end up at Featherstone as well?

I haven't been as excited about the potential of a scrum half at Leeds since Gareth Stephens.

Its more like Wayne Bennet took won look at him and said, wait have I not signed darius Boyd again already?! Your failing to mention he got that role by pushing Ben Barba out of position

1) he runs the ball a fair bit

2) the current England 7 has no running game what so ever

Like Sinfield did? Briers was hardly dashing around in his latter form years. I think one of halves need a running game but not both (hell McGuires had diminished yet he and Sinfield saw us to a treble last year)



As for the kick, Golden Boy Thurston missed a similar one in what was tricky conditions for a kicker and I can forgive some potential nerves for someone in his first big game in only his 7th game.

Why is it silly to point out fundamental flaws. No player is perfect by any means, but a halfback who can't pass is like a 5 stone prop.

The current England SH is relatively garbage. I've argued that for years.

But aimless running is potentially worse than no running.

Ooh that told me

I'd hope he might end up at Leeds for a couple of seasons but as long as Leeds continue to produce and roll out the SL quality halves the like of David Gibbons, Gavin Brown, Paddy Handley, Jonny Hepworth, Scott Murrell and Ben White's of this world then priorities clearly lay elsewhere.



Re the two kicks - Different ends of the pitch so as both are right foot, instep kickers one of those 'similar' kicks was with a natural shape while the other was against it.



Lilley kicked one last week at Widnes off the 'wrong' touchline, Sinfield's (IMO) greatest conversion was in the Huddersfield CC SF of 2003, Lee Crooks' two pointer to draw a Test (and World Cup Qualifying) match at Elland Road in '85 also springs to mind - great kicks because, the latter two at least, were under the most extreme of pressures.



Hardaker failed his first real test of a pressure kick (arguably first two tests V Warrington) and was almost universally condemned on here, most (IIRC) offering the opinion had Lilley been given the job one or both points would have gone to Leeds, well that jury may have to reconsider their verdict on their favoured alternative given this latest evidence.

I seem to remember Sutty nailing one of those pressure kicks (at least on a par with the one Zak missed against Wire) against Catalan. Is he out of kicking contention because of his knee? Because when Sinifield wasn't on last year it was Sutty who kicked.



Lilley looks a natural kicker, but is not guaranteed a spot when everyone's fit.



Hardaker is a strange one,I seem to remember a couple of games where he's kicked really well, but at the same time he's just as capable of going one from four.



All 3 with work could be vaiable options, but at the minute non have really seperated themselves from the rest.

Think JJB and Ward said during their USA game commentary he had done a bit of goal kicking whilst over in Florida (along with Hardaker, Lilley, Golding and Cam Smith). But he must have only just started again around that time after several months out so might be rusty/kicking poorly upon his return.

bring back furner he was effin brilliant

Did you see Morgan play? he is there purely for his running game, he isnt even a second choice kicker as they get the fullback to do it, how is that different to burrow?

also if Hardaker was in the NRL there would be alot more emphasis on set plays making it much easier to pass and get assists as the overlap is created infield

Morgan can pass and kick. He is mainly a runner but he knows how to suck in defenders and get the ball away, and doesn't kill moves every time he gets the ball. He also plays alongside the world's best which helps a lot.



Hardaker plays head down rugby for Leeds, and in our current structure we need him to be much more of a link. You are right to say he'd be involved in more set plays in the NRL, but so was Hoffman who also dies with the ball far too often. As a result he's no longer considered a first choice full back. Hardaker may do better, but the point is he'd have to fundamentally change how he plays.



My issue is, why aren't these players continually trying to improve the obvious flaws in their game? There's no real reason why Hardaker couldn't pass more. There's also no reason why Burrow can't think about setting up plays rather than darting around aimlessly and changing direction all the time. In SL they are stars. I really don't think its too harsh to say they wouldn't be in the NRL without considerable improvement in core skills for their positions.



I picked on Leeds players because I support Leeds. I could give a critique of every British player and point out problems across the board, but that would be dull. A big difference between SL and NRL is down to the fact that the flaws across the NRL are generally smaller, and players with flaws get found out and punted. Recent examples being Barba as a fullback/playmaker, Hoffman as a fullback and the likes of Tim Smith at halfback. That's why I worry about Widdopp for England as I think he got shown up a lot last year and needs to improve immensely if he is to lead England against Australia.

I read an interesting piece recently about St. George moving Dugan from fullback because they wanted more of a playmaker there. I think Hardakers Game is very similar to Dugan. The same piece also questioned the Roosters moving Ferguson to the back because he was more of a runner, but that still seems to be the way they've gone.



I think Hardaker would go perfectly alright in the NRL, but I the minute we don't seem to be giving him the opportunity to excel, often getting the ball stood still or moving laterally.

If Hardaker is getting the ball stood still or moving laterally then that's down to him not picking or timing his run properly. And then unfortunately it seems as if he doesn't know where to run or what to do when he has the ball.



I think Hardaker is a good example of the difference between NRL and SL.

He's about the best we've got to offer at full back but he has big gaps in his skill set, especially his mental skill set. Decision making & focus when attacking aren't evident in him, probably because his physical skills (speed, evasion etc) have always seen him through so he hasn't needed to develop his passing, timing or position of run, who to run at etc. Except against the top defences speed and evasion will only get you so far, at some point your attack has to be part of, and fit in with the team as a whole. Pretty much the epitome of what plagues the sport in terms of player development.



Now the positive side is his defence, which is superb, the best in the world by some distance in my opinion. That's something that he learned in fairly short order and requires focus to consistently perform to a high standard (which he's done). So he can do it, I think the trick will be making him want to do it. Hopefully a few "set backs" like the kicking and not getting through some defences for a while just on his physicality may be good for him in the long run.

I agree he could make better decisions, and that they would give him an extra half second I'm hopeful as our young halves get more game time (or Mags returns) the quality of ball to all the backs will improve.



I think it's worth remembering Zak spent his early games at wing and centre. The best linkers (Webb, Tomkins) have spent time in a halfback role. Hopefully it's something Zak can improve on.