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| Quote philipk="philipk"
i dont work under a salary cap and im sure that those contributors on here who are in full or even part time employment arent restricted either- so why should RL players be'"
Yes you do. Your employer will have an amount available to spend on salaries, all companies have restricted money available for salaries. What about companies that have salary bands? The Civil Service for example? Each grade can only earn up to a set amount. If you hit the maximum, you don't get a pay rise unless that maximum is raised, to get a further increase you have to be promoted. You have to change jobs to get a pay increase. Is that restraint of trade?
There is no restriction of trade, nothing is stopping that player signing a contract for the money the club wants to pay. The fact that they either can't afford to pay them more, or simply don't think they are worth it is not a restriction on trade. The fact that the player chooses not to accept a contract because he thinks he is worth more does not constitute a restriction on trade.
When Chris Moyles was offered a reduced salary for his new contract because the BBC were reducing their salary budget, if he had rejected it, would that have been a restraint on trade? No.
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| My opinions:
1) The SC has certainly 'spread' the best players around, too a degree.
2) It has stopped some clubs spending more than they could afford and may have stopped worse things happening...
3) To increase it, the game needs a significant increase in revenue.
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| Quote Saddened!="Saddened!"Raising the cap would be good, but the sport doesn't have the finances to do it.'"
Succintly summed up by the sad bloke in the corner. Argue all you want about paying players more, restirictions on trade, blah blah blah, but there isn't a club in the country who can pay more than the salary cap allows, whilst still staying in business. If union can pay more for the top players, then that is life, get on with it. Union is a vastly richer sport than league, to try to compete with their wages is folly, and will lead to major problems in the game.
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| Quote Saddened!="Saddened!"I don't think it was ever intended to actually improve the rugby, just level out the playing field so we didn't have another 10 years of dominance from one club.'"
only another 7 years to go then 
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| There are restrictions of what a player can be paid in RL.
A player can't be paid £1.7m. Theory yes, he still can't be though so it's a restriction.
Clubs are spending monies on other things now they are not investing it in players. As mentioned Leeds turnover was £10m with a cap of £1.65.
Of course they can afford to spend more than £1.65m on 25 players.
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| Quote Father Ted="Father Ted"There are restrictions of what a player can be paid in RL.
A player can't be paid £1.7m. Theory yes, he still can't be though so it's a restriction.
Clubs are spending monies on other things now they are not investing it in players. As mentioned Leeds turnover was £10m with a cap of £1.65.
Of course they can afford to spend more than £1.65m on 25 players.'"
how can they afford it if they only made a slight profit by selling assets? hardly longterm thinking. If a club can make a profit through "normal" business then they may have a case for raising the cap, but any that do barely break even.
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| Quote Father Ted="Father Ted"There are restrictions of what a player can be paid in RL.
A player can't be paid £1.7m. Theory yes, he still can't be though so it's a restriction.
Clubs are spending monies on other things now they are not investing it in players. As mentioned Leeds turnover was £10m with a cap of £1.65.
Of course they can afford to spend more than £1.65m on 25 players.'"
What was their profit though?
If their turnover is £10 million but their costs are £10 million, then no they can't.
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| Quote Billinge_Lump="Billinge_Lump"What was their profit though?
If their turnover is £10 million but their costs are £10 million, then no they can't.'" My wage bill is approx half of my monthly costs, and I don't run a labour intensive business, I sell goods rather than services. However, a rugby league club needs a lot more staff than just the players - it needs to staff the whole infrastructure, they also will have a high cost of maintaining their premises and I would assume matchday itself is rather expensive in terms of staffing/organising.
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| Quote Saint Simon="Saint Simon"how can they afford it if they only made a slight profit by selling assets?'"
Where did you hear this? In terms of a balance sheet, that statement is a bit of an oxymoron. Fixed assets or current assets?
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| Quote Offside Monkey="Offside Monkey"Where did you hear this? In terms of a balance sheet, that statement is a bit of an oxymoron. Fixed assets or current assets?'"
it was on here or the VT when all the clubs released their accounts, leeds sold a peice of land to put them in profit
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| Quote Saint Simon="Saint Simon"it was on here or the VT when all the clubs released their accounts, leeds sold a peice of land to put them in profit'"
Then that's a nonsense - unless they sold it for more than it was valued at.
Your Profit & Loss report doesn't care whether you've £XX worth of cash or £XX worth of fixed assests.
An accountant (which I'm not) may talk about [icash profit[/i or something like that, but i think that's more for monitoring your company's postion than end of the day profit.
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| Quote Jonesy's a Legend="Jonesy's a Legend"only another 7 years to go then
'"
Before Leeds win a CC, and can then count themselves amongst the good teams of the SL era.
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| Quote Saint Simon="Saint Simon"I think the essence of it is that the players arnt restricted on what they can earn, the clubs have agreed to stick to a level, this is voluntary, so no laws are broken'"
It isnt voluntary, the RFL (or Super League ltd) impose sanctions for going above that level.
If it were a case where all chairmen had simply decided to pay up to £1.65m then you would be right, but it isnt. They are forced to do so.
And a player would simply need to prove that his earnings were limited by this to have reason to challenge it. I doubt it would stand up
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| Quote saints35 bulls0="saints35 bulls0"there is no way that a player could prove that his earnings have been severly reduced due to the salary cap, as there is no restriction on what a player can earn.
UEFA would love to have a salary cap in place - the only reason they dont is that the big clubs would just walk away and set up their own independent Euro Super League.'"
there clearly is a restriction or we wouldnt have a salary cap
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| Quote Saint Simon="Saint Simon"how can they afford it if they only made a slight profit by selling assets? hardly longterm thinking. If a club can make a profit through "normal" business then they may have a case for raising the cap, but any that do barely break even.'"
the sale of assets did take Leeds into a profit. It was however a one of expenditure (on the Southstand) that took them into a loss
If you discount the one off income of the sale, and the one of expenditure on the southstand. We operated at a profit
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| Quote Billinge_Lump="Billinge_Lump"Yes you do. Your employer will have an amount available to spend on salaries, all companies have restricted money available for salaries. What about companies that have salary bands? The Civil Service for example? Each grade can only earn up to a set amount. If you hit the maximum, you don't get a pay rise unless that maximum is raised, to get a further increase you have to be promoted. You have to change jobs to get a pay increase. Is that restraint of trade?
There is no restriction of trade, nothing is stopping that player signing a contract for the money the club wants to pay. The fact that they either can't afford to pay them more, or simply don't think they are worth it is not a restriction on trade. The fact that the player chooses not to accept a contract because he thinks he is worth more does not constitute a restriction on trade.
When Chris Moyles was offered a reduced salary for his new contract because the BBC were reducing their salary budget, if he had rejected it, would that have been a restraint on trade? No.'"
for some reason you are comparing a single business operating in an open market to a group of business operating in a restricted market.
People in the civil service have the option of going to do the same job in the private sector for more money. Market forces will judge their worth. Chris Moyles can go work for Sky TV, ITV, or any numer of radio stations, again Market Forces will judge his worth.
An RL player only has a limited number of clubs who have all together limited a players potential for earning. Leon Pryce cant go play for Wigan on a £2m a year deal because Wigan and Saint helens have agreed together to limit wages. Chris Moyles possible earnings at ITV arent limited by what the BBC and ITV have agreed. This is a huge difference
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| On the SC itself.
A salary Cap imo can be a good thing. It can be used to force clubs to do what we want and reward them for doing so.
This SC is rubbish. It doesnt do any of the things it was supposed to and has been an all round failure
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"the sale of assets did take Leeds into a profit. It was however a one of expenditure (on the Southstand) that took them into a loss
If you discount the one off income of the sale, and the one of expenditure on the southstand. We operated at a profit'"
 but maintanence of the ground is on going, but you cant sell your assets more than once.
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| Quote Saint Simon="Saint Simon"icon_frustrated.gif but maintanence of the ground is on going, but you cant sell your assets more than once.'" Yes maintenance of the ground is ongoing, but the outlay on the southstand wasnt standard maintenance, it wont be paid out again-ever. It was a one off expenditure
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"
An RL player only has a limited number of clubs who have all together limited a players potential for earning. Leon Pryce cant go play for Wigan on a £2m a year deal because Wigan and Saint helens have agreed together to limit wages. Chris Moyles possible earnings at ITV arent limited by what the BBC and ITV have agreed. This is a huge difference'"
if Wigan can get a third party sponsor to pay £2m for Leon Pryce's salary then there is no restriction - which is surely a good thing, as it rewards clubs that have strong commercial and business acumen, and stops clubs spending money they dont have.
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| Quote saints35 bulls0="saints35 bulls0"if Wigan can get a third party sponsor to pay £2m for Leon Pryce's salary then there is no restriction - which is surely a good thing, as it rewards clubs that have strong commercial and business acumen, and stops clubs spending money they dont have.'"
only if that company has no relationship with the club at all. Which makes it very difficult, nigh on impossible. Which is another poor aspect of this SC.
And if Wigan can afford it, it stops them paying out what they can afford. And neither does it stop them paying out £1.65m if they dont have £1.65m
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"for some reason you are comparing a single business operating in an open market to a group of business operating in a restricted market.'"
It was an example of wage restrictions that aren't illegal. The fact that it is a single business (assuming you're talking about the civil service reference) in an open market compared to a group of business operating in a restricted market doesn't matter. If a civil servant wants to do a certain job in that industry his individual wages are capped at a certain level, an RL players is not within that wage budget.
Quote SmokeyTAPeople in the civil service have the option of going to do the same job in the private sector for more money. Market forces will judge their worth. Chris Moyles can go work for Sky TV, ITV, or any numer of radio stations, again Market Forces will judge his worth.
An RL player only has a limited number of clubs who have all together limited a players potential for earning. Leon Pryce cant go play for Wigan on a £2m a year deal because Wigan and Saint helens have agreed together to limit wages. Chris Moyles possible earnings at ITV arent limited by what the BBC and ITV have agreed. This is a huge difference'"
RL players can go to the NRL, or they can play RU, there are options there for them. Given there are outside employers available, it isn't as restricted a market as you suggest it is. As you suggest, market forces are at work. If the player does not feel that the wage he is being offered by an RL club is enough, he is free to attempt to improve that wage elsewhere, just like a civil servant going to a private firm. You can't have it both ways, you appear to be suggesting that an RL player shouldn't have to change job for a pay rise, but a civil servant should.
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| Quote SmokeyTA="SmokeyTA"only if that company has no relationship with the club at all. Which makes it very difficult, nigh on impossible. Which is another poor aspect of this SC.'"
like Paul Sculthorpe & Gillette, Iestyn Harris & Reebok (Leeds), Iestyn Harris at Bradford (although not the best example, due to incompentance at the Bulls) amongst many others??
If the player has a high enough profile and the club has good commercial sense they can make it happen without breaking the rules.
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| Quote Billinge_Lump="Billinge_Lump"It was an example of wage restrictions that aren't illegal. The fact that it is a single business (assuming you're talking about the civil service reference) in an open market compared to a group of business operating in a restricted market doesn't matter. If a civil servant wants to do a certain job in that industry his individual wages are capped at a certain level, an RL players is not within that wage budget.'"
it is the fundemental difference
Quote Billinge_Lump
RL players can go to the NRL, or they can play RU, there are options there for them. Given there are outside employers available, it isn't as restricted a market as you suggest it is. As you suggest, market forces are at work. If the player does not feel that the wage he is being offered by an RL club is enough, he is free to attempt to improve that wage elsewhere, just like a civil servant going to a private firm. You can't have it both ways, you appear to be suggesting that an RL player shouldn't have to change job for a pay rise, but a civil servant should.'"
Im suggesting an RL player can't. He cant go somewhere else and and be an RL player for more money because all the clubs are under the same salary restrictions.
And it isnt market forces at work because the SC stops that happening. Saying he can go to other sports or to australia is irrelevant. the SC is a fundemental restriction on a player earning his worth as an RL player in this country.
a Civil servant has the opportunity to go into the private sector and do the same job for money. It would be the equivalent of an RL player moving from one RL club to another NOT as you seem to be equating it a move from RL to RU.
The Current rules would equate to a secretary's earnings working for Vodafone being limited to what BT can spend on their Secretaries. And your justification would be to say its OK, this secretary could leave and be a plumber or move to Australia.
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| Quote saints35 bulls0="saints35 bulls0"like Paul Sculthorpe & Gillette, Iestyn Harris & Reebok (Leeds), Iestyn Harris at Bradford (although not the best example, due to incompentance at the Bulls) amongst many others??
If the player has a high enough profile and the club has good commercial sense they can make it happen without breaking the rules.'"
Yes. Like two people. One of which wasnt allowed. Its obviously not a very successful scheme is it
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