enough said really.

What's your point? I wasn't disagreeing with you.



The word ultra has been used because the football groups use it. I don't see why people are getting their knickers in a twist because they can't accept that using the term is provocative and seem to be dying to contextualize it until it is just a meaningless word. If it was meaningless it wouldn't have been used.



Why use a label which (as has been mentioned by those including 'members') has been tainted by football groups when literally any could have been used? It just doesn't make any sense to me and seems to be deliberately chosen with either bad taste or bad intentions in mind; the balaclava's would provoke the same response in many.

Some of the posts from Brigantes members on here take me back to Primary school and the days of having gangs. It seems that some are more than a touch sensitive to any form of criticism but at the same time are more than willing to accept any compliments that go their way. This along with talk of policing the Brigantes, the Brigantes brand etc and people wanting this thread locked just because there is criticism make it sound more like a communist dictatorship whose word is final than a group of supporters. The last time I looked this forum wasnt a vehicle for the Brigantes and was for Wigan Rugby League. I would have thought this thread was a cracking way of taking peoples concerns on board and trying to improve things. Instead though I think the hostility shown towards any criticism, no matter how minor, has simply served to alienate some Wigan fans even more.



On the term Ultras every person I know when asked about this thinks of this as being a hooligan term. Whether people in the Brigantes like it or not a large percentage of people think this way and importantly people from other clubs think this way. There is simply no need to use this word and there are plenty of alternatives that could be used. As posters from other clubs have said plastering oppostion grounds with Wigan Ultra stickers is just asking for trouble further down the line because as we know all clubs have idiots and things like this are just all the excuse they need. If fans from Warrington plastered Warrington stickers all over the JJB there would be outrage on this board. Again this is all needless so why not just drop the Ultra tag and use one of the many more firiendly alternatives. People are trying to defend it by saying Ultras in a Rugby League context means something else. Well for a start there is no Ultras in a Rugby League context because no one has used it before, for obvious reasons, and it is simply a term copied from other sports. It should be no shock to anyone if that meaning is also brought across too. Some people are also saying that Ultra isnt a hooligan term and means above the norm and supporting their club in extraordinary ways. If this doesnt mean they think they are better than the average fan then I dont know what does. I, and I know others, think some Brigantes members think they are somehow better than the average fan and if the Ultra term means this to Brigantes members then it just reinforces this even more.



Other non-Brigantes Wigan fans raise valid concerns about drumming etc and they are called a sad old men. Surely instead of replying with such hostility Brigantes should be trying to appeal to all Wigan fans and take peoples concerns on board. The Brigantes, who at the end of the day are a very small minority of Wigan fans, are certainly making it seem like it is a case of if you are not with them, and if you dont agree with everything they say and do, then you are against them. Surely this should not be the case and it definately isnt the best way of getting people on board.

This is why people shouldn't post about the 'ultra' thing when they don't have a clue about that particular scene.



Ultras are in many sports all across europe, these include... Basketball, Handball, Waterpolo, Rugby Union, Swimming, Ice-hockey, Speedway, Aussie Rules, Motor sports, Volleyball, Gaelic Football....



It is a way of supporting your team beyond the norm. That is all. It is not just a football thing, it was just birthed there. We wouldn't say Rugby League is just a Huddersfield thing.

Jeeeeeeesus christ you are bumming this "will you break the drum?" when you know he isnt going to do so. Stop milking it flower

So because the word Negro can be deemed as being offensive, the Spanish and Portuguese should change the word, or not use it at all?



A balaclava is a garment used to keep your head and face warm. A scarf is used to keep your neck, and often your chin and lower face warm, should they be banned from general sale because some chose to hide their faces with balaclavas and scarfs while breaking the law?



A hooker is a prostitute, or perhaps it's a position in Rugby...



Ultra is a football hooligan, or perhaps it's a group of die hard supporters in Rugby.





It this man a hooligan?

No, it was November 2010 in Germany, and temperatures were below freezing.





Is this man a hooligan?

No, he's wearing a fire proof balaclava to protect his face from being burned.





Are these people hooligans? Look at them. Disgraceful. Climbing on the advertising hoardings, invading the pitch holding flares too.



Oh wait, they're not flares, the stadium is on fire, they're not climbing on the advertising hoardings, they're trying to evacuate the stand. Of course, that is the Bradford Stadium fire.





What i've proven here is that what you perceive as X Y and Z, is often the complete opposite. If you saw the guy in the 1st picture stood in the stands of the DW Stadium, would you brand him a hooligan?



Looks can be deceiving, as can words, and their often unsubstansiated interpretations.

My goodness. 'Knickers in a twist' probably didn't quite cover it.

I don't think the issue is really with people thinking that the Brigantes are hooligans. It seems the issue is whether a term that is associated with hooliganism (wrongly, but there have been some incidents of violence from ultras which can present that impression) is necessary for the Brigantes or whether using it simply makes it harder to get across the intentions of the group.



If there are Wigan fans who feel that the term ultras has too much of a negative connotation and might be off putting, is it still essential to use the term ultras? Or is getting more people involved more important?



I know I've been asking about it on the Brigantes forum and can understand that it's very possible that dropping the use of the term might not make any difference whatsoever, I just don't see how it's an essential part of what the group is doing.



You can make displays, flags, support the team as loud as you want and do everything that's currently done without being called ultras. Those things aren't exclusively 'ultra'

Quite. I think some of the posts from Brigantes members have done far more damage to the Brigantes, and for that matter would have put people off joining, than any of the posts from people that have offered constructive criticism.

Make sure you take your face coverings next tuesday, the north stand at Barton faces directly into the prevailing wind and you will be very cold





Plus the low angle of the terracing means any rain will basically blow under and onto everybody in the stand, even the top rows will get drenched

I seriously doubt that if changed our name and identity we would all of a sudden have an influx of people wanting to jump on board with us.



If only 30-40 people out of our 16k average are interested then thats fine, we are happy with that. If people want to join in at the big games, they are welcome to do so.



People who have an agenda against us will not change just because of a name, much of it is based on their made up sterotypes and the lack of knowledge people have about the Ultras scene. If we go another 5 season and not one Brigantes member gets into a fight, surely we will have proved it is not a violent cause and people may be more happy to join.

Ultras bus leaving for Salford from th'old Gas showrooms on Tuesday.



PM me or 21-12 if interested. Cheers

Using the Bradford fire to try and make a point about the group is one of the most tasteless and bizarre things I've ever seen on here, and makes you and the group you're trying to defend not one any right minded individual would want to be associated with. You might want to try and rethink that one.

OK, find me a post or any form of evidence where any of the people involved have said they are a better fan than anyone else?



We havent. We arent. Beyond the norm is waving flags and singing songs constantly. That isnt considered normal otherwise every sporting ground in the world would be awash with flags and noise.



Someone who decides to support the team in the normal manner of the occasional chant is as equally as good a fan because they are there each week and I havent seen anyone suggest otherwise.



I wouldnt say the posts from myself, odem, onedego etc are dummy spits. Were just trying to defend our corner when being labelled hooligans, idiots and people who think were better than others

I thought the thread should be locked as this doesn't seem like the ideal place to raise concerns. There's no need for a Brigantes v The World debate.



I'm sure the group are willing to hear any concerns, criticisms or suggestions; I just don't believe a 18 page long thread will do anyone any favours.

i was wondering where you were Andy





youve missed it all





Seriously though, i know the majority of the fella's that run the Brigantes club and ive even helped raise some dosh for the flags (mines a pint) i can also be seen wearing a brigantes scarf and badge

crackin set of folk and i honestly canny imagine Brian, Chris, Paul, Dave, Roy or Andyy to name but a few running about sticking stickers on lamp posts balaclava'd up







Great stuff and keep up the good work lads



what a very interesting thread, BK you are a legend

I'm always here.





I actually like what they've done/do, but this thread is not really putting some of those attaching themselves to the group (one way or another) in a particularly good light. I'm sure some of the originators will have their head in their hands at some of the stuff put in this thread.

Right. My final post on this thread. If you have any ideas how the atmosphere can be improved at Wigan games then come to the next meeting, post it on the Brigantes board or send an email to wrlbrigantes@hotmail.co.uk it WILL be discussed.

Right. My final post on this thread. If you have any ideas how the atmosphere can be improved at Wigan games then come to the next meeting, post it on the Brigantes board or send an email to wrlbrigantes@hotmail.co.uk it WILL be discussed.

Using what happened at Bradford to some how make a point about your little group is ing disgusting.



Edit - just seen that Andy has already mentioned it.

Agreed. Defo last post

I'm with you conroy. We will do our best to make sure this never happens again, it is not something we agree with.



We will also do our best to continue to support the team in the way we love doing, we hope you will join us.



Anyone with any questions, negative or positive questions, please do not hesitate to PM me, I would even be happy to meet for a chat or speak on the phone.



Please feel free to come to our next meeting which will be posted on the website.

And my point proven entirely. You see, the magic word here is CONTEXT. When you take the Bradford Fire out of the context in which it was used, then yes, its use to defend a group would be rather unsavoury.



HOWEVER, when IN CONTEXT the point that is being proven is not anything to do with the Brigantes, Ultras, but is rather about how images and words are percieved then it is perfectly acceptable.



You take the first image of the bradford fire out of context and show it to someone who hadn't seen it before (and in my case, up until 3 years ago i hadn't ever seen actual images of the fire) and say only "This is a football match", their first impressions are "football hooligans doing what hooligans do", but when you see what the outcome of that image is, then it's very easy to see that your initial impression was incorrect.



That is no different to what is occuring with the name Brigantes and Ultras, taken out of context from Rugby League then you may be right to gather the first impression that the Ultras group is a group of hooligans who are out to cause trouble, but when you slide the Ultras name in to the Rugby League sport, and see that it's a new concept and a concept that The Brigantes are trying to develop and protect, then it goes a very long way to prove that much of the critisms purely because of a preconceived impression of a word are unjustified and playing purely on stereotype.

Listen mate, quit your patronizing tone.



I could not give a flying about your perceived opinion on how the other view the group "out of context".



Boo ing hoo.



A very close friend of mine lost his father at Valley parade when he was 5 years old and i have been on training courses when in the Navy run by an ex fireman who was onsite that day. Let me tell you now that that poor cries himself to sleep thinking of what went on.



To use that particular example, frankly boils my .



I like the idea of the Brigantes in principal and have offered to donate flags in the past. I tell you what though after listening to some of you (dare i say "younger"icon_wink.gif members on this thread then i can only suggest that some older members give you some "polite" guidance on how to conduct yourself on here.

You seem from your response to be blissfully unaware that your choice to use the Bradford stadium fire and images of it could cause distress, upset and maybe even anger amongst others. To use images of a tragedy that resulted in the deaths of innocent people to try to put across some point about taking things out of context is crass in the extreme. The use of such images in the context in which you chose to use them will be offensive to many but does it not occur to you that fans other than Wigan supporters read these boards. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that people who were either at that fateful football game, or that have friends and relatives that were could see this thread and your post. The least you could do is to apologise for offence caused by using the images you did in the manner you did and acknowledge that it was not appropriate.

I'm going to go very off topic now but I remember watching the footage of that tragic fire for the first time a few years ago, and "football hooligans doing what hooligans do" was not something that ever once crossed my mind, and I'm really baffled at how you can try and use that to "prove" your point. Infact I don't see how anyone could come to that conclusion from seeing that photo or the footage footage.



Even when taken out of context. that fire had absolutely nothing to do with hooligans or ultra's or anything like that.





Why cant you just accept that people have their pre-conceptions/stereotypes about the whole ultra thing? Rightly or wrongly people who will have those views, they don't know you at all, so they have nothing else to base their judgement on other than the stereotypical view of what happens a lot with "ultra" groups. that's just life.... and it's the same for every stereotype the world over....



with time, more people will learn about what you do, and will know and understand that you are a good group of people just supporting your club with banners and by being vocal. I really dont think getting overly defensive on an internet forum will change anyones pre-conceptions.