I agree with what you are saying, although after watching Tommy's performances for NW I was in favour of him coming back for me TL and GW don't complement each other. We need a half with a good long kicking game as neither have. That said without a change in tactics regarding the use of our forwards it's probably pointless.

Standard excuse attempt by many to re write history.



Matty Smith kicking game is far superior to TL and Matty Smith was no world beater very often. But on his day his kicking cold be exceptional.



Smith might be a bench player for Saints but TL would not get a game.

You have to wonder what was going through the managements minds when they signed two players St Helens had originally been looking at in Nuuausala and Leuluai. If there was ever a club (in recent history) not to jump over the top of for transfer targets it's been St Helens. Their recruitment has been a disaster for a number of years.

I totally disagree. Smith's kicking game was no better than average. His kicks were straight down the full back or wingers throats most of the time or went straight dead in goal. He had the odd good game with the boot which masked his inept performances in other facets of the game. Tommy is a far better rugby player than Smith could ever dream of being but his kicking game isn't much worse than Smiths.

Its due to Burgess turning up after pre season so it severly hampered the season, like Leeds last year.

Wane could do himself (and the club's season ticket coffers) a favour if he publically acknowledged that the style of play hasn't been entertaining enough and they are going back to the drawing board to address this. I feel he will stay on, but that will mean a lot fewer renewals and more financial pain for the club.

It's was a question, don't be so defensive. Good job the majority of Wigan fans aren't as precious as you.



Wane is bad for the game, it's as simple as that.

Load of rubbish. A very successful British coach with more passion in his little finger than any other coach in SL ever had. He loves the game and loves his club. He might not be your cup of tea but to say he's been bad for the game is just completely wrong. Would you prefer all foreign coaches just here for a pay packet?

Well said.

The trouble is, mate, considered as your views may be - and I don't know (or care) whether they are or aren't - this is the kind of OTT crud we hear all the time.



Wigan aren't just bad, they're evil. Wigan don't try to get ahead as a club (unlike everyone else, of course), they deliberately do it at the expense of old ladies and orphans. Wigan's coach isn't just bad for Wigan, he's bad for society as a whole.



All shrieked at us in Pinky & Perky voices.



You might be different, but the record's the same. It's all a yawn.

Massively this and im a bulls fan!

Everything has a shelf life and i think Wane's is up and so is the conditioning coaches and fitness coaches. Wholesale changes are needed for me. Worryingly the stats show we are getting worse in near enough every aspect of the game. This label of world champions has been a go to excuse as well " but we're world champions ".

It's a bit daft playing down the significance of being World Champions. Only Wigan fans could do that. Just one side from Super League gets a crack at it and it's rare that we beat the Aussies nowadays. Now we are using it as a stick to beat the coach with. Amazing!



Wane has not done well this season as I'm sure he knows only too well. But I've NEVER heard him use the excuse of "we're world champions". If he has please provide a link and I'll happily apologise.

"PCollinson" is a poster on the Hull boards who's been banned a couple of times and returns in various guises. He gets shown up time & time again with his lack of knowledge about the game, and this bile is his usual sort of stuff. Don't rise to the bait.

I think someone said he was quoted as saying something like "at the beginning of the season if you'd have told me we would win the WCC and appeared in the CC Final I would have taken it".



I've not seen this quote anywhere but assume this is where the "it's okay we are world club champions" has originated from.



I am curious did he actually say this?

It does seem unlikely doesn't it? At the beginning of every season he wants to win the lot. I doubt that will change.

The full interface is on Wigan TV and he said it more than one.

Winning the WCC was great but if it is being used as a stick to beat him up with, it is because it was 7 months ago and what came after was rubbish. He was given leeway when there were injuries but even then the writing was on the wall as we managed to snatch defeats or draws from the jaws of victory. We won the WCC and the wheels came off. It's a paradox so it's not surprising it is mentioned.



I wonder though if we had gone on to win either the CC or GF if the WCC would get mentioned at all other than as in "..and we won the WCC as well". Would it be seen as the clubs crowning glory this season ahead of either domestic competition? I have my doubts.

I still don't know how seriously the WCC is taken in Australia.



Okay, they specialise in making excuses whenever they lose, but I doubt any of them ever come over intending not to try.



But let's be honest, it's not really a fair assessment of where the participating teams actually stand.



The early season factor is massive. Neither side is fit, neither is really in the swing of it. It doesn't surprise me that British teams have won many more of these fixtures than they have Test matches, because it's much more of a lottery.



It shouldn't be underestimated, of course. It IS silverware, and it IS to Shaun Wane's credit that he won one for us in 2017. But that first month of the season was so different from everything that followed that it now feels like a lifetime ago. I wonder what chance we'd have stood if we'd played that game in August.

I think the early season factor and them having to fly round the world is easily offset by the difference in the level of player NRL clubs can attract these days given the difference in the salary cap, origin/test selection opportunities etc. It probably doesn't really show that we are better than Cronulla, but does show that we are (well, were) ahead of other SL teams given that SL teams have won only 2 of the last 10 games.

I would never try to deny the honour that victory brought to the club. Any victory over an top Aussie team has to be a good one. But as Dave O said - and most people know that Dave and I don't always see eye to eye - what happened afterwards put a different perspective on things. Wigan were so hopeless in 2017 that you can't help but wonder what was going on that day we beat Cronulla.



I'm prepared to accept the argument that we were simply brilliant ... but even so, playing like that once in a season is nowhere near enough.

The wheels didn't come off following the WCC match as we were looking like a pretty good, threatening team when we played Wire in March. A dodgy draw v Hudds and a narrow loss to Hull in the following weeks were arguably the start of our decline this season.

The dodgey draw was a decent result all things considered. We lost Lockers and Sutton within the 1st 8 minutes and we already had a few missing.

In fairness to Wane with that comment, there was a thread on here before the Cronulla game asking if winning that and nothing else would be deemed a success and a good few said yet.



As I said at the time, this side has too many quality players in it to be happy that just that win. It's been a poor season but as I've posted a few times, it's a sign of the club bs standing and ambition when you feel a poor season is becoming world champions, appearing in a cup final and winning your 8th academy title in 10 years.

If SW's future was to be decided by the video ref it would be a try on the field (winning the WCC) and inconclusive evidence to overrule the on field decision, and that's after watching the replays for about 15 minutes....