: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:39 pm  

Lord_Percy wrote:

You forget, Gilder's a bitter City fan with a pathalogical hatred of all things LUFC.

You've got one part of that sentence right, and that's who I support.

I've no time for "hatred" on or off the football field, and find it sad in those who have - like those who rejoice in setting things on fire, for example. Or singing songs about air crashes.

Neither am I "bitter" - certainly not as bitter as a whole generation of Leeds fans about one European Cup final, for example.

What I am is entirely baffled at is the local media butt-kissing going on at the moment around the Leeds squad of that era, the sycophantic piece done by Harry Gration on Look North being a prime example. If they had been able to restrain their egos, they may have found themselves in the same position as John McGovern - a Clough signing who was universally hated and booed by Leeds fans - a handful of years later and picking up a European Cup for a second time.

Have a think about when the decline of Leeds United that led to so many empty years in the 80s began, and who was indirectly responsible for it.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:47 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

You've got one part of that sentence right, and that's who I support.

I've no time for "hatred" on or off the football field, and find it sad in those who have - like those who rejoice in setting things on fire, for example. Or singing songs about air crashes.

Neither am I "bitter" - certainly not as bitter as a whole generation of Leeds fans about one European Cup final, for example.

What I am is entirely baffled at is the local media butt-kissing going on at the moment around the Leeds squad of that era, the sycophantic piece done by Harry Gration on Look North being a prime example. If they had been able to restrain their egos, they may have found themselves in the same position as John McGovern - a Clough signing who was universally hated and booed by Leeds fans - a handful of years later and picking up a European Cup for a second time.

Have a think about when the decline of Leeds United that led to so many empty years in the 80s began, and who was indirectly responsible for it.

The Leeds team restrain their egos? Compared to Clough? He walked into the most successful club side of the previous decade and decided, for his own vanity, to slag them off to their faces. He freely admitted he hated Leeds, but his vanity still made him take the job, why did he do that?

Who was responsible? Numerous people, but Clough was one of them. Once he'd gone that side reached the European Cup final, what was his record? He was the only manager who had that side who failed, not Don, not Jimmy Armfield, just "Old Big Head", as you called him.

Another thing, if the Leeds players were responsible for Leeds' woes during the 80's, what part did Clough play in Forest's downfall? They, obviously, won the European Cup, but it didn't stop them spending just as much time out of the top flight as Leeds did, and they even achieved the "honour" of being in Division 3 before us.

Finally, it wasn't just one European Cup, it was 2 European finals. Check out the reports of the 1973 Cup Winners Cup final for a classic example of a ref being bent.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 1:57 pm  

Lord_Percy wrote:

The Leeds team restrain their egos? Compared to Clough? He walked into the most successful club side of the previous decade and decided, for his own vanity, to slag them off to their faces. He freely admitted he hated Leeds, but his vanity still made him take the job, why did he do that?.

He hated the way that Leeds side played the game, not Leeds itself, not Leeds as a club, not the players individually. He had an enormous amount of respect for their ability, read the section on it in Clough's biography.

What he did was point out where each and every one of those players could still improve. They clearly didn't take well to criticism, coming from the Revie school of "no-one likes us and we don't care".

With a team of players with hugely inferior reputations, Clough won two European Cups. What might he have achieved with the "most successful club side of the previous decade" if they hadn't let their own preciousness get in the way?

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:06 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

He hated the way that Leeds side played the game, not Leeds itself, not Leeds as a club, not the players individually. He had an enormous amount of respect for their ability, read the section on it in Clough's biography.

We'll have to agree to differ on that one, especially the bit about him not hating the players individually. I've read stuff, including players autobiographies, where he was less than complimentary about them individually

Andy Gilder wrote:

What he did was point out where each and every one of those players could still improve. They clearly didn't take well to criticism, coming from the Revie school of "no-one likes us and we don't care".

"You can throw all your medals and caps away, you won them all by cheating" How's that critisicism that's constructive and going to help you improve. That's indicitive of Clough's managerial style, and won that anybody could see was never going to work. Maybe Revie did take things too far, but you don't/can't go into any club and change things overnight.

Andy Gilder wrote:

With a team of players with hugely inferior reputations, Clough won two European Cups. What might he have achieved with the "most successful club side of the previous decade" if they hadn't let their own preciousness get in the way?

Who knows? What might they have achieved if Clough hadn't let his preciousness and ego get in the way? It's pretty basic management stuff to not completely change something's that's working overnight, which is what he tried to do. If he'd have gone about things differently, made the changes over the course of a couple of years he'd have probably done it, but he went into it like a bull in a china shop and the end result was entirely predictable.

[Ex-Swarcliffe Rhino]

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:29 pm  

Lord_Percy wrote:

Who knows? What might they have achieved if Clough hadn't let his preciousness and ego get in the way? It's pretty basic management stuff to not completely change something's that's working overnight, which is what he tried to do. If he'd have gone about things differently, made the changes over the course of a couple of years he'd have probably done it, but he went into it like a bull in a china shop and the end result was entirely predictable.

Interesting piece in the local YEP tonight by a Mr Lorimer, better than his usual tripe anyway about this very subject, Lorimer ran into him at an awards do in Nottingham and as the big man himself says cloughie admitted to him in his own "coulorful" way that he had fecked up at Leeds and he should have used more "tact".

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:25 pm  

Eastwoods Delayed Visa wrote:

Interesting piece in the local YEP tonight by a Mr Lorimer, better than his usual tripe anyway about this very subject, Lorimer ran into him at an awards do in Nottingham and as the big man himself says cloughie admitted to him in his own "coulorful" way that he had fecked up at Leeds and he should have used more "tact".

I saw an interview on t.v after he'd left forrest and he admitted then he'd got his approach to the leeds job all wrong and regretted it.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 5:26 pm  

Kallum Watkins' Left Boot wrote: does anyone know what the tune that leeds united walk out too now is called, cant find it at all This one... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1fK_O_G ... re=related Fanfare for Rocky from the Rocky soundtrack

Kallum Watkins' Left Boot wrote: does anyone know what the tune that leeds united walk out too now is called, cant find it at all This one... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1fK_O_G ... re=related Fanfare for Rocky from the Rocky soundtrack

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:06 pm  

clough was rude,arrogant and slaughtered the leeds players when he was there. perhaps if he had showed his respect,as stated in his book, he may have done ok. giles should have had the job

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:09 pm  

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2009/mar/18/leedsunited The people have spoken.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/poll/2009/mar/18/leedsunited The people have spoken.

: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:11 pm  

i'm not knocking cloughs record but the directors wanted shooting for giving him the job and he should have done it differently. you would have thought he wanted to fail